Lubrication

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JaS
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Re: Lubrication

Post by JaS » 29 Nov 2011 01:49

Sheilajeanne wrote:My apologies for stepping on your toes. And I have nothing against 10W-30. It's just that others experts on the forum don't agree with your choices.
Do not believe Whitneyville, ever :lol: He is not an 'expert' on anything and his comments relating to oil are nonsense, as are many of his other posts. FWIW here is a list of oils recommended by a selection of turntable manufacturers, which include machine, engine and gearbox oils.

Alphason - oil (type/viscosity not stated)

Ariston - light machine oil

Avid - designed to run dry (do not add lubricants)

BSR - light machine oil

Connoisseur - lubricating oil (type/viscosity not stated)

Dual (various models) - Renotac 342 'tacky oil' (special lubricant for plain bearings)

Empire - 3 and 1 (SAE20)

FONS - not specified

Heybrook - special oil (type/viscosity not stated)

JVC - not specified

Linn - special oil (the bearing is subject to two and a half tons pressure per square inch. Linn oil is specifically formulated to eliminate the microscopic welds that can occur at that pressure)

Luxman - not specified (most sealed DD)

Manticore - main bearing oil (type/viscosity not stated)

Michell - synthetic bearing oil (viscosity not stated)

Micro Seiki - not specified (some BD/DD are sealed)

Mission - not specified (note PTFE bushing)

NAD - SAE80/90 (Rega based) / fine machine oil (5120)

Nottingham Analogue - bearing oil / Kinetic Enhancement oil (type/viscosity not stated)

QED - not specified

Rabco - not specified

RCA - SAE20 machine oil

Rega - Comma Hypoid EP80, Castrol EPX80w/90 or Shell Spirax EP90

Rek-O Kut - SAE20 motor oil

Revolver- main bearing oil (type/viscosity not stated)

Rotel - not specified

Roksan - main bearing oil (type/viscosity not stated)

Russco - SAE30 automotive oil (lubriplate on ball every 3 months)

Sonab - not specified

Sonographe - non specified (Turcite self lubricating bearing cup)

Source - bearing oil (type/viscosity not stated)

Systemdek - SAE90 Hypoid gear oil

Technics - SFW0 010 (SAE20)

Thorens ISO46 turbine oil (SAE20) (early models) or Titan Super Syn Oil (most late models)

Townshend - bearing oil (type/viscosity not stated)

Transcriptors - motor oil (viscosity not stated)

Voyd - bearing oil (type/viscosity not stated)

VPi - SAE40 motor oil (or Slick 50 - was SAE30 now multigrade)

Regards,
JaS

dualref
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Re: Lubrication

Post by dualref » 29 Nov 2011 02:39

No, before I listed the replacement solvents I contacted quite a few shops that have a good reputation servicing Dual turntables. I asked them what they use since a lot of those lubes are either no longer available, or only available in huge quantities that would overwhelm a person. These were the answers I received from those shops.
I always strive to find the best answers for the questions I answer and I know there are people out there who know much more than I do because they have been in the business for 30+ years or so.

As for who to believe, you really must do your own research and come to your own conclusions. But the fact is, Dual turntables do have a propensity to bind up after many years due to lack of cleaning and relubing. As long as the lube you are using is similar to what Dual recommends you can't really go wrong. A lot of the lubes Dual used are now obsolete and much more modern and better ones are available. At least the new ones we use won't dry up on you.

As for myself, what do I use? I don't use anything. I send mine out to a shop to do this work for me. So far, so good.

Sheilajeanne
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Re: Lubrication

Post by Sheilajeanne » 29 Nov 2011 15:03

Dualref, so you DID make up that list, after consulting with experts?

The Dual 1209 I have was part of an old stereo system I bought at an estate sale. Unfortunately, someone had already gotten the receiver AND the needle and cartridge holder off the turntable. I replaced the receiver with a nice Kenwood 2 weeks ago, and was finally able to hook the Dual up. It plays, but obviously does need lubrication, as it sounds awful.

I would take it to an expert for lubrication, and know where to find someone who's knowledgeable with vintage equipment, BUT, I have already shelled out around $50 to replace the cartridge and holder, and another $53 for the receiver. The original cost of the turntable and other equipment (Realistic speakers, JVC tape deck and a 5 disc CD player) was only $30. So, how much more do I want to spend to get this turntable working?

If my finances were better, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I really want to hear my old vinyl albums as they were meant to sound! :(

What do they charge you to do the lubrication?

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Re: Lubrication

Post by dualref » 30 Nov 2011 05:32

Yes, when I created that page I called at least 5 different repair shops that perform this service on a large scale. They included the two biggest Dual parts suppliers around. And the lubes listed is what they told me. And three of the shops were former Dual authorized service centers.

It seems that the general pricing for cleaning, re-lubricating and adjusting a Dual 1200 series turntable is around $200-$250.00 or so.

When you get a Dual that hasn't had this service done before it's a long, tedious job. It's more time consuming than hard. So you are paying for labor mostly. If you have more time and patience than money (I know, I've been there!) you can do the job yourself.

The big problem is getting the old stuff off. It looks like mud and is hard to remove. Someone here mentioned using WD-40 to remove the old. I think that may be a great idea. But put the WD-40 on a Q-tip and apply rather than spraying directly on the part. When doing this service you need to control exactly where
the cleaning stuff goes as it may be harmful to other parts.

Several years ago someone gave me a 1229Q that didn't work. The unit had been in storage in a garage for about 25 years. It was a classic case of old lube bind up. It was so bound up the motor wouldn't even turn. I sent it to a shop here in town and the bill for cleaning it up, re-lubricating it and adjusting it came to $235.00. But it worked like new again.

And the newer style lubricants won't bind up like the old style ones did. You still have to relubricate the turntable about every 5 years, but the binding up problem shouldn't happen ever again.

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Re: Lubrication

Post by Sheilajeanne » 30 Nov 2011 15:07

Yikes! I could buy a reconditioned turntable or two for that much! :(

I already used q-tips and WD40 to remove all the visible dried on grease I could find, but have not yet tried disassembling anything. Actually, the reason I haven't gone any farther is I was balancing it on its side while I cleaned the bottom, and, despite having a rolled up towel supporting it, it tipped over, and cracked the headshell. (There was no cartridge or cartridge holder in it at the time, but I cracked the piece that they slide into.)

It doesn't seem to have cracked right through, but the electronics store I contacted told me if it needs replacement, I will have to replace the whole tone arm. And even if I could find one, he said I could get a whole reconditioned turntable for what it would cost to replace. :(

I'm waiting for a chance to drive to Toronto to get their opinion on it.

Nope, NOT happy with myself! Wish I'd removed the turntable before attempting any cleaning, as it was the weight of that which caused it to tip over.

dualref
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Re: Lubrication

Post by dualref » 30 Nov 2011 18:08

Ouch, I am so sorry to hear of that little accident.

The best way I have found to work on a Dual turntable is to get a box about 9x6 and at least 6 inches high or so and put it on a table. Remove the turntable from the base unit. Now, making sure the tonearm is locked down,flip the turntable upside down and center the platter on the box that you put on the table. Using the box ensures that you won't hit the tonearm on the table while doing this job.
You don't really need to disassemble the turntable to get to the spots that the lubrication is located. If you see an area you can't get to, just select start on the turntable and rotate the platter a spin or two, that'll bring most of these lube points out into the open.

I wouldn't worry about that cracked headshell too much. If you can put the cartridge carrier into the headshell with no further cracking, I think you'll be home free. Just be very careful when you do that. The proper way to put the cartridge carrier back in is to tilt the rear of the carrier up about 40 degrees or so, point the rear of the carrier into the spot on the headshell
where the contacts go (rear), then raise the front of the carrier so it's level with the front of the headshell and pull the tonearm forward to lock it in place. That'll put minimal strain on the headshell.

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Re: Lubrication

Post by dualref » 30 Nov 2011 21:32

And make sure the box that you use in the above procedure has an open top for the spindle to fit into. If you have any other questions about this, please don't hesitate to ask. Remember, everyone including the experts were a newbee at one time or another. If you don't ask how are you going to know?

BTW, United Audio, the distributor of Dual had a jig that the turntable would fit into and the turntable could be rotated 360 degrees on it's side access to make it easy to work on any part of the turntable.

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Re: Lubrication

Post by gridleakrick » 01 Dec 2011 03:42

sheilajeanne,
Graphite lube should never be used in electronic equipment. Graphite is electrically conductive and could find its way onto electronic circuitry which would not be good. Try the SuperLube I recommended earlier in this thread. You'll be quite happy with the results.
Rick

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Re: Lubrication

Post by Sheilajeanne » 01 Dec 2011 05:03

Dualref, thank you. I've found the people on this forum very helpful and tolerant of my ignorance, and you don't find that everywhere you go on the web.

Rick, thank you for finally answering that question! I couldn't find the Superlube, but have bought a tube of Ultraslick Extreme Sport synthetic grease. However, given Dual's advice, I may take them both back, and just get some 10W30. I have some White Lightning bicycle chain grease, and am wondering if that would do for the lithium based grease recommended on the lube chart. Probably too runny, no?

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Re: Lubrication

Post by Sheilajeanne » 01 Dec 2011 06:57

Oops, too late to edit!

Dualref, you're right, the cartridge does still fit, and it seems to actually be holding together the cracked headshell quite nicely. (The headshell is the top of the very end of the tonearm, right? The part with the lever on it that you flip forward to secure the cartridge in place?)

And due to the links others have already provided, I've found the guy at the electronics store was wrong. I can replace the headshell without having to replace the whole tonearm, and it's not that expensive, either:

http://turntableexperts.com/html/dual.html

I believe the bottom picture on the left side of the page shows the part I'd need.

dualref
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Re: Lubrication

Post by dualref » 02 Dec 2011 02:14

Yes, the headshell is the piece at the front end of the tonearm with the tonearm life (the slider thing) and the cartridge carrier fits into it.

The photo you referred to is indeed a headshell, but not the right one for your turntable. You may want to send an inquiry to South Street to see if they have the exact model you need in stock. Parts for the earlier 1200 series models are getting kind of scarce. BUT, if the current headshell is still holding the cartridge tight, then I wouldn't worry about that for now.

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Re: Lubrication

Post by Sheilajeanne » 04 Dec 2011 19:24

Well, I now have the TT lubricated and rotating at the right number of RPMs, without any help from the speed adjustment knob!

However, I spoke too soon about the headshell. It's actually sort of hanging off the end of the tonearm, and the sound is warbling and shaky. Southstreet does have one they can sell me for $30 &SH. What other things might be affecting the sound? Are there any contacts I should try to clean to improve sound quality?

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Re: Lubrication

Post by Sheilajeanne » 04 Dec 2011 21:47

Still struggling with those technical terms...lol...I now realized the term I was trying to remember for speed adjustment knob was 'pitch control'!

I just started it up again now, and the first part of the first number on the LP (overture for the stage musical, "Man of La Mancha") sounded all right, then the sound quality began to become scratchy and rough and staticy toward the end. Any suggestions as to what to do to correct this?

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Re: Lubrication

Post by Sheilajeanne » 05 Dec 2011 05:19

Okay, forget the cracked headshell that is no longer exactly parallel with the tonearm, forget lubrication and cleaning contacts: it turns out the sound problem was due to the speaker wires not connecting well enough with the reciever!

A bit of fiddling, and all is well! :D :D :D :D

I just spent the last 40 minutes listening to one of my favourite albums, and it sounds pretty good. I still have a few problems to iron out re. placement of speakers and the different components, but that can wait for another day!

Wow, those 17 inch Realistic speakers are powerful! I only had the volume up to 4 and it was plenty loud enough for me (and bouncing off the opposite wall, so that's one of the reasons I need to fine-tune the speaker placement!)

YEEHAW!! (Dances off to bed, humming 'The Impossible Dream'...)

dualref
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Re: Lubrication

Post by dualref » 05 Dec 2011 05:24

Still struggling with those technical terms...lol...

Don't worry about it, we all had to learn them at one time or another. :D

It sounds like you are on your way with your turntable and sound system. Do you like the way it sounds? I'm glad you were able to work on your turntable yourself.
There was a lot to learn doing that. It's not that hard, but sure can save you a ton of money!
What kind of amp or receiver are you using?

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