Dual 1214

twice the fun
amagasakii
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Dual 1214

Post by amagasakii » 04 Jan 2020 01:47

Okay, this is the last one for a while, as I'm now officially out of shelf space. Sony HP-510A music centre with Dual 1214 T turntable. (Hey, you were right, Vinyl Master, same thrift store as the 1225, only a couple weeks later!)
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This one needs much more work than the 1225 I picked up a couple weeks back. Motor bearings are very seized, all the controls are gummed up, and the tonearm rock (tonearm bearing support [58]) is split/cracked. (It came with the counterweight and TK-14 carrier, so if nothing else, I have it for spares. Platter trim ring is safely in a parts bin too. :))

I know the 1214 is the budget model, but I figure I'll swap it in for my SL-65B (when I finally give it a full tear-down and lubrication), and then give it to my parents afterwards, as my mom had a Noresco Consolette with a 1214 (NC-363, maybe?)

Fortunately Value Village doesn't bat an eye if you do surgery in the aisles, so I freed up the bearings a little and verified that the motor at least tries to turn. I didn't test the receiver well enough so, annoyingly, it turns out it fades out to a crackle after about 2 minutes of playing.

The whole thing has the unmistakable scent of cigarette smoke and incense/air freshener that anyone of a certain age will recognize from hanging out in rec rooms in high school or in your friend's first apartment with the shag carpet. Back when people smoked indoors...or even just smoked. :D

Quick questions:

What's the best way to repair the tonearm rock? I spent a long time last night searching threads, but didn't actually find a step-by-step. Would ABS cement work? I could use JB Weld (which I believe is similar to Araldite) or superglue. Once it's repaired, I assume the force exerted on the rock by the needle bearings would be minimal.

When removing the tonearm from the rock, can I just tape the VTF spring in place? Or is it best to remove it and check its condition? I've not fully removed a Dual tonearm, but from the threads I've read, this little thing seems to give people trouble when reinstalling it.

Thanks!

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by DSJR » 04 Jan 2020 10:49

The Uk sold Sony 510A centres I remember from 1983 had Sony decks in with tractor-like auto trip parts which ruined lateral friction I remember.

My 1214 was given to me to restore or scrap as it had been wrecked in transit to the chap who donated it to me. The arm and rest had been torn off, the bearing pillar bent, the mech had been over greased by an over-enthusiastic former keeper and incorrect grease ladled on the cam ways and sadly, the platter had scratched the trim around the speed change lever.

Good thing was the 4 pole motor and good idler still. If yours has the 4 pole motor, you're away, otherwise have a look on 'organdonorparts' to locate one plus associated wiring if needed.

I found a good used tonearm, straightened the pillar as best I could (fortunately the anchoring to the top plate held), but the cradle did need gluing to the bearing spindle shaft (I think I used superglue then araldite, one after the other). The bearings are a royal pain as the tiny balls in the lateral race are free and not 'captive' as they are in the 1216. In your case, they can probably be left well alone and if set well by the fixing nuts underneath, lateral friction is very low indeed and not so far from the snooty :D needle pivots of later and higher models. Mine is far lower lateral friction than my sample of 1019, but the latter is running so well otherwise I'm loate to take it apart, although maybe I need to.

The motor is easy to take down and service, is capable of very smooth running and the rest of the mechanism underneath is basically shared with many other models, give or take a small part here and there. The cam on mine needed to be cleaned and the start-stop follower freed off (I used a solvent cleaner spray - I cheated a bit - but if you feel better removing said item to clean, do what Dualcan suggests and tie some cotton around the tiny partly hidden U shaped wire spring which otherwise flies off never to be seen again!). The trip 'pawls' are held with a miniature thumb nut and correct setting is a matter of feel really.

The main limiting thing with this deck is the crude setting of bias correction/anti-skate. The familiar delicate spring arrangement is there, but you have three anchoring points for this, from high (3 - 5g tracking) to obscene in my case. It's easy to GENTLY bend the bracket near to the tonearm lateral axis (look up various service manuals to try to put my terrible description into practise) and now gently reset, the bias on the minimum setting is perfect for 1 - 2g trackers and I've used the very delicate ancient Shure V15T2 in mine at 1g with absolutely no problems at all as long as I pre-engage the cueing lift before auto-starting as the auto lift and especially lowering is a bit abrupt.

I found for sale a 1216 cast platter which pops on the existing main bearing spindle perfectly. More mass, seems slightly quieter through the speakers as well. Not necessary but as my deck was a rebuild i didn't mind the twenty quid or so it cost me.

Lastly, the 'pimpel' is the previous 'white' type and mine had flattened. I was able to remove it and somehow restore some of the dome shape and for several ytears of very light use, it's running just fine.

Sorry for the essay above, but I love my 1214 after the restoration and it's one of those decks that you have few expectations of - and are then blown away by its latent real ability. Yours is in far better nick than mine was on receipt and with the careful considerate arm adjustments, repair to the arm 'cradle?' and auto-lowering on the cueing device above, it'll happily play host to very good cartridges too. I add a cork mat for single LP's to get the arm more level and remove this for playing singles. cartridge choice is up to you, but Duals love current AT's (AT91R upwards) and as the evergreen AT95E shows improvements over the well known predecessor, you'd need little more than that or the finer 95-EN I think (far better than a tired old Shure M75 whatever).

P.S. It's potentially in a TOTALLY different and higher league to an SL65B, believe me.......

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by amagasakii » 04 Jan 2020 11:50

Hey DSJR! You popped up more than a few times in 1214-related threads I read last night so I was hoping you'd reply. :)

Your 1214 sounds like it had a bit of a rough life in transit, but good on you in fixing it up rather than just parting it out. I tend to become attached to these things as well; (I bought a $5 2025TC with the intention of keeping it for spares but once I tore it town to the baseplate and put it back together, I couldn't bring myself to cannibalize it. :roll:)

This one has the four pole motor. The AT CN5625AL cart installed was a clue, but I popped it out at the thrift store to make sure it had the four pole anyway. I'm looking forward to stripping the motor down properly; the top bearing was nearly frozen to the shaft, so I want to do a thorough cleaning and re-oiling.

I dare not disassemble the tonearm as lateral movement seems just fine. Floated (as best possible with the vertical bearings in their current state due to the cracked cradle), the tonearm swings in effortlessly with the antiskate spring on the lowest (and, as you noted, quite strong) setting. Fortunately the trip levers and start-stop follower on this beast move freely as well, so I won't tinker with them too much. The associated levers and gubbins are quite gummy, so I'll spend my time on those.

Both manual and automatic cue damping do seem a bit "enthusiastic", but I'm probably going to run an AT3600L, M70 or MG09 on this one, so as long as it doesn't slam the thing arm down on 78 like my 2025TC did to its poor old Astatic 187D, things should be fine.

Apparently we're both writing essays. ;) And while I know the 1214 is in a different league from the SL65B, I'm too fond of that one to let it go!

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by DSJR » 04 Jan 2020 22:23

Seriously, an ATVM95E will be great and way below what the arm can be capable of handling. My suggestion regarding the arm may well be to unsolder the fine screened cables from the terminal block underneath (can the deck be fully and easily disconnected from the music centre chassis underneath so you can take it out?) and gently remove the arm proper from the cradle, which includes the tracking force spring (the screw on that side has a backwards thread remember). You can get to the cradle then and shouldn't need to remove anything else with luck. Dualcan has access to many parts as do organdonorparts and I wonder if a replacement cradle (plus lateral bearing spindle) assembly may be hanging around in one of the two venues? Like I said, if you do locate one, you'll be cursing me when/if you come to replace it as you need several hands as you fit and locate the top race while turning the deck upside down to locate the bottom balls without dislodging the top ones and then fitting the locating nut, which needs careful setting before the segment goes on and finally the bottom nut (from memory). Took me a few goes to get it spot on but it's been faultless ever since..

Take care with the grease. mrow2 here can supply the pukka stuff and if it's any consolation, I put the 1214 back into storage today and brought down my (supposedly) 'serviced by me some years back' Garrard AP76. It's well over a year since I used it last and guess what - it's gummed up again and the tiniest bit of 'Garrard Glue' on the end of the long record indexing rod (which seemed to move properly in play mode but actually moves far more in the auto-cycle, locating in pivots at both ends) prevented the arm 'indexing' 12" records. The start-stop lever assembly under the platter had also gone sticky :(

So, a warning to anyone reading this - Cleaning the worst off may be a temporary fix, but one day and maybe not too long in the future, you're going to have to delve deeply to strip out, clean and restore proper function on these levers and sliding parts. Old Garrards are a wonderfully forgiving, 'tough as old boots' place to hone one's skills before graduating to Duals which are rather finer and more delicate in general, albeit utterly reliable when working right.

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by dualcan » 05 Jan 2020 02:45

Hi,
Perhaps this old thread might help:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=90035&p=751371&hil ... ck#p751371
Regards,
k

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by amagasakii » 05 Jan 2020 05:23

Hi Klaus,

Thanks, that's one of the threads I was reading. In it, you said: With 274 out, the rock (58) can be repaired. I have an earlier thread on this repair, if you search my postings. Do you have a link to this thread? I was unable to find it going through your posts.

The rock on mine is cracked near the set screw (48). I'm hoping I can repair it in situ, but it doesn't seem to be a huge deal if I do have to remove it (as long as the ball bearings are in races, which your thread says are, though DSJR says are loose). Any idea what the set screw is for? The only mention of it in the service manual is tonearm height adjustment, which doesn't seem right.

Apologies for the hair and dust, I haven't got a new can of compressed air yet. :)
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Re: Dual 1214

Post by amagasakii » 05 Jan 2020 05:29

DSJR, a ATVM95E is on my list, though I'm more inclined to use it on my 521 or 1225. ;)

I ran into the same thing with my 40B as your AP76. In storage for a year and things were gummed up! Fortunately just the main control lever, so it wouldn't turn itself off once in a while. That's on the service list too!

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by dualcan » 05 Jan 2020 20:06

Hi,
You might get away with only removing the arm proper (15) with the dial (55) as then the rock and the damage is exposed. if the crack line stays clear of the support shaft, you might have some success with super glue, but if there is any doubt, the rock must (should - anyways) be removed to avoid creating a "still life" ...
As DS pointed out there may be free steel balls and the nylon cage, I do remember this from some units, but to replace them is not the end of the world.
If you look at my recent upload from the 1007 restoration:
https://www.dropbox.com/home/Dual%20Sha ... estoration
Pic 102 show how I replaced the 14 steel balls without oil, back into the race way. The trick is to insert the shaft, leaving only enough place for the steel balls. As you drop them one by one into the nylon receptacle (you only have five I think), just gently nudge them around and allow the next free space to be filled with the rest of the balls.
Once the top race is full, descent the arm and keep it from moving as shown in 103. Now flip over the unit (it's here that the DIY stand comes handy...) and without loosing grip on top- set the bottom race the same way. The plastic crown is always facing outwards, that is to say the top crown sits with "spikes" right side up and the lower, spikes down. Keep the locking nut 274 very close to apply as soon as the raceways are in place. For the uninitiated- (including myself...) keep a cookie pan with higher edges under the changer to recapture the balls for the first fifty or so tries - piece of cake or cookies really!! Just remember not to move your hand that clamps down the arm holding the upper bearings, until nut 274 is in place.
The bearing play will be set once you install the segment 275 and its nut 276. Set a small bit of play with nut 274 and counter tighten nut 276. This not only hold the segment 275 in place but also determines the amount of bearing play you leave.
Once you succeeded the next time you will get it at the first shot!
I'm afraid I don't know where that earlier thread is either, but if you follow this, then there should be no problem.
--Off topic -- Over the holidays almost our kitchen appliances all went on strike. The big ones (fridge and stove) were replaced and now it's off to fix our Cuisineart espresso machine. These fine Cuisinart folks however don't offer any service diagrams nor internal parts ---GRRRR.
Luckily we know that the vibrating pump utilized, is a common Ulka Model E (EP 5) and can be had for a Kings Ransom or $18 bucks from China! Hallelujah for the internet!!
Thanks also to Hugh who helped in purchasing some parts from Siemens in Belgium, and was therefore able to resurrect our thirty year old Siemens mixer model MK4. Thanks again Hugh, the unit purrs perfectly again!
Regards,
k

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by DSJR » 06 Jan 2020 00:36

See Klaus, you can say all that now, but when I did my 1214 some years back, I had to try it with the race one way up, fail and try again :D I had done a Garrard Lab 80mk2 with sixteen non-captive TINY balls using tweezers and the same trick of partly inserting the bearing shaft, easing said balls round before the next one. In this case, no lower set as there's a plain sleeve, a fabric washer and then the equivalent of the 'segment' screwed on, gravity alone keeping the assembly stable and surprisingly low enough in friction.

Anyway, I'm sure it's possible to repair while leaving said lateral bearings alone but as stated many times here, take HUGE care when re-aligning the vertical needle pivots on reassembly - using finger tips to screw the left needle bearing screw into place and watching very carefully...

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by amagasakii » 06 Jan 2020 10:34

Klaus, thanks for the incredibly detailed reply! The pictures from the 1007 restoration are quite helpful, as is the suggestion to use a cookie pan to catch the errant balls for attempts 1 through 49. ;) Having only 5 ball bearings per crown is definitely an easier initiation.

I feel like having the fridge and stove go at the same time could be viewed as an omen…though, more likely, just an annoying coincidence. :) It's always amusing to go trolling around AliExpress to see how much markup there is by the time they hit store shelves here. Bluetooth receivers are my favourite; $20 on the shelf, or $1.88 if you can wait 30-50 days.

Now as far as stand mixers go, I still have my old Sunbeam Mixmaster downstairs waiting to be resurrected too. One day!
DSJR wrote:
06 Jan 2020 00:36
I had done a Garrard Lab 80mk2 with sixteen non-captive TINY balls using tweezers and the same trick of partly inserting the bearing shaft, easing said balls round before the next one.
DSJR, a Lab 80 MK2 is on my wish list here. If I ever manage to find one, rest assured I'll be picking your brain about it!

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by amagasakii » 06 Jan 2020 11:40

I figured I'd start with the motor this evening. I need to go to the hardware store to get some appropriate hardware to replace the rivets in the bearing bridges, so I didn't drill them out yet. Cleaned them with isopropyl, cleaned the white "corrosion" out of the stator, and now it actually spins. Steady speeds and all (forgot my 33/45/78 strobe disc upstairs). Previously the motor just hummed or spun incredibly slowly. The chrome on the rotor seems fine and the shaft of the rotor is true.

I wonder what exactly the previous owner was attempting in the last photo? That's red heat shrink tubing on the trip pawl.
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33 stable
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45 stable
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Re: Dual 1214

Post by amagasakii » 06 Jan 2020 11:48

The idler might need rebuilding. There's small flat spot that's translating into a loud thump that I can actually feel in the chassis and tonearm head. Also, I feel like a Dual idler shouldn't be warped like this; won't this cause flutter, riding up and down the spindle?
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Re: Dual 1214

Post by DSJR » 06 Jan 2020 16:49

The edge is radiused, so the warp isn't the issue. The flat won't be so easily filed out, because of the radiused edge...

Try organdonorparts ;)

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by amagasakii » 06 Jan 2020 21:02

Damned if I do, damned if I don't! ;) Organ Donor Parts seems to have one idler (with speed changing assembly) at the moment. Have you ordered from them? They say it's "nice and pliable" but I'd hate to order it and find it has a flat spot as well.

They also have a tonearm rock listed but it's out of stock. Go figure!

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Re: Dual 1214

Post by DSJR » 06 Jan 2020 21:25

That idler is shared with various models you know ;)



Yep, I've used organdonorparts and they give good service :D Shipping to the UK economical and quick I found. Sth St Services have Dual parts I think as well as Garrard - cough - used them too.....

The former have loads of stuff not listed, so all you have to do is ask..

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