1218. Tracking force is off

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nonost
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1218. Tracking force is off

Post by nonost » 30 Dec 2019 00:04

Hi. I have problems when setting the tracking force of the dual 1218 I'm restoring. I doesn't match the weight at all. When I dial to 1g it is indeed 1.15g, 2g becomes 2.35g, and dialing to 3g gives me around 3.6g. What could be wrong?

I've cleaned the arm bearings and still the same problem. I don't know what my be causing this. The vertical and horizontal movements are ok.

I don't know what to do. It looks like I'm missing something important.
IMG_20191229_224140.jpg
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That's the housing. It's not centered. Is it ok?

dualcan
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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by dualcan » 30 Dec 2019 01:06

Hi,
No it is not correctly placed,
First make sure the zero stop is properly placed:
Zero stop.JPG
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The green lines are the copper fingers inside the wheel, The red is the spiral spring:
Tracking wheel.JPG
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As you can hopefully see, the spiral spring is only held under the first copper tab to the right, all subsequent copper tabs do not touch the spring. This will center the spring better.
To verify if the outside "chrome" wheel with the numbers is still correctly set, place the tracking dial on the arm bearing bracket as usual, engaging the bent spring tab onto the cut out notch on the arm traverse.
Do not put any rotation pressure or dial force on the tracking dial, just let it sit freely on the arm. The center of the "0" marking on the outside scale must align perfectly with the white line on the arm frame:
1218 arm .jpg
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In the pic, the dial is already being turned as the two green lines do not line up.
Again, in the relaxed (spring) setting, the line must cross the center of the 0, otherwise the "chrome cup" with numbers has been rotated and needs to be reset.
Regards,
k

nonost
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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by nonost » 30 Dec 2019 14:50

Hi Klaus, what Christmas present! Thank you very much for taking your time.

The zero stop was way off. Now I think it is as it should be:
IMG_20191230_153405.jpg
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The spiral, as you noticed, was also wrong. I've moved it a little bit, though I don't know the exact placement. The second copper finger it's being pushed by the spiral. The rest of them are free.
IMG_20191230_153430.jpg
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I don't know if the first copper tab should be more to right or more to the left. Right now it's still not working properly.

Thanks!

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by dualcan » 30 Dec 2019 22:12

Hi,
It looks like the outer end of the spring is somewhat bent out of shape. Slip out the spring and see if all the turns are in an even concentric spiral. Once that is the case, slip it back in with that outer angle sitting in the dial's inner black cup cutout (at about 5 o'clock in this picture), and only under the first copper tab to the right. All these tabs should be touching that black cup fairly tightly as well. All is well when the spiral sits nice and concentric to the bearing pin. You can insert/screw in that pin into the dial without the arm to check this. The inner spring bent must of course be seated in the arm traverse bracket's cut out:
IMG_20191230_153430.jpg
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Once that happens, the only other problem can be that the outer silver/alu dial is out of whack/ turned out of sync. That you will see by lining the dial up as I explained earlier. Keep in mind that the two race ways on either side of the arm traverse must be clean / steel balls in bearing cups rotate freely. Then when the bearing pins are gently re inserted all must line up and the dial apply proper pressure. Take absolute care in this process not to skewer the tiny bearing covers with the bearing pins, as that will pinch the bearing race and hinder the steel balls from moving.
Regards,
k

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by nonost » 06 Jan 2020 04:23

Ok, I will try that. My spiral doesn't look as concentric as it should be so that might be the problem.

About the arm ball bearing. I've cleaned them from the outside since I'm not sure if it is advisable to remove the captive ball races. I've adjusted the vertical movement of the arm very carefully and patiently. Now I can balance the arm and pass the stamp test but I feel the vertical movement of this unit a bit different from the 1225/1235 models. With that models the balance of the arm seems easier and moving more freely. Not sure if that's how this arm beaves or dirty ball bearings.

Thank you very much!

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by dualcan » 06 Jan 2020 04:45

Hi
If anything, the 1218 must be "smoother" in the vertical races than the others as the bearings are finer than the 1225. If the bearing races are dirty/oily, take the arm out and submerse the complete rear end of the arm with the races into a jar of alcohol. Once the tiny balls in the cages are ready to move (use a needle to see if they rotate) then just let the arm dry out. I would mount the bearings dry unless you saw some rust on the cover. A tiny drop of very light oil (singer sewing machine oil will do the trick if you don't have synthetic oil) and prevent further rust. The next issue is to set the bearing play properly with just a tiny bit of play.
As for the spiral spring, look at the concentric shape of the loops when you have it out of the disc housing. You may need to put a tiny bent into the outer loop near its attaching (b)end to get it concentric.
Regards,
k

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by nonost » 22 Jan 2020 01:14

I'm back! We kind of followed this topic in the third page here:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 8&start=30

To sum up: the spiral is held by two fingers and the third is the one missing.

Here a picture of my dial:
photo_2020-01-22_02-01-36.jpg
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As you can see the spiral is not centered. But the spiral looks good to me:
photo_2020-01-22_02-01-41.jpg
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I still have the problem with the tracking force. What can I do to center the spiral? Should I bend the outer end? At 2g I get around 2.35g. It's really annoying me :S

Thanks Klaus, I'm learning quite a lot!

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by DSJR » 22 Jan 2020 10:37

I thought these finer springs should go through just the one 'finger?' Looks to me judging by the pictures that if it does this, the whole alignment will be better and you may have a more accurate calibration on it.

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by amagasakii » 22 Jan 2020 19:15

We're spreading things across threads now. ;) 5g dials use two fingers, 3g dials use one.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 0#p1026191

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by DSJR » 23 Jan 2020 10:38

On much past experience, you can NEVER have too many threads on some subjects here, as it helps new and old posters to find information in years to come.

nonost
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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by nonost » 23 Jan 2020 13:34

'DSJR' is right. Using only one finger and being the lost finger the second one, the spiral is centered much better. But as 'amagasakii' noted it should be held by two fingers.

In my last comment I linked to the same post 'amagasakii' did.

Anyway, now I noticed how in the first pic posted here by 'dualcan' the spiral seems to be hold by just the first finger... Maybe Klaus can check again that wheel. In case I'm correct that would be a little mess.

I got a new wheel and a couple things more for 15€. So we will see!

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by dualcan » 23 Jan 2020 22:46

Hi,
I checked a few different wheels from the 1009 (7 grams) and others that go to 5 grams , all are held by two fingers and exiting the third (missing ) finger. These are NOS items and still packaged.
As yet I have not checked on the three grams variants as I don't seem to have NOS stock at the moment.
Regards,
k

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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by DSJR » 24 Jan 2020 10:48

What Nonost could try is use the one finger for now, carefully reassemble the tonearm and bearings and check with an external balance for subsequent accuracy or not. In addition to posh digital scales, the tiny Ortofon balance is actually good enough (and cheap) for 1.5 - 2g tracking checks and I loved the old plastic AR turntable 'scales' as sold here -

https://www.esotericsound.com/access.htm

Down near the bottom of the page of vinyl goodie accessories. They used to be very accurate to the weights placed on the balance side and far better than a Shure balance I once owned, which wasn't very accurate at all!

nonost
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Re: 1218. Tracking force is off

Post by nonost » 24 Jan 2020 14:24

I did weeks ago when I was dealing with this...with no luck though. It looks something is wrong. I will let you know in a week how it goes with the new wheel.

Cheers.

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