Dual 1219 cue problem

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Peter Smart
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Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Peter Smart » 10 Nov 2019 14:30

Hello everyone!

I`m trying to fix the cueing on my old Dual1219. The silicone oil had to be replaced, and that is what i did. Putting the parts toghether is the problem. I followed the advices i can find, but can`t find out the right way to do this. I followed this "servicemanual":
http://akdatabase.org/AKview/albums/use ... ateurs.pdf

The problem is reassembling the cueing piston in the cylinder. The manual says it is two "e-washers", but on mine it is only one"e-washer" , and two ordinary washers. I can`t find out of how to place them in the right way.

Regards Peter (not feeling that) Smart

musicmn
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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by musicmn » 11 Nov 2019 02:58

Hi Peter, In the service manual page 18 is the exploded view of the lift bolt assembly. The two very small flat washers ref number 186 in the service manual go on the lift bolt then the small compression spring ref number 185 is placed on the lift bolt. The lift bolt is then inserted into the cylinder with the damping fluid placed inside the cylinder. Then the first C clip ref number 182 is installed. Next the positioning sleeve ref number 212 is screwed on then the next C clip is installed ref number 178 and then the guild ( upper pimple) is installed ref number 211. Both C clips are needed to adjust the height of the lifting bolt. If one C clip is missing then you will need to find one to replace it if the lifing bolt has two slots for the C clips. Now if the lifting bolt only has one slot in it to fit the one C clip you have install the compression spring on the lift bolt then insert it into the cylinder then the positioning sleeve is screwed on and then the one C clip is installed and then the guild. I have found this set up on one 1219 I worked on some time back. I checked and rechecked the service manual to make sure everything was correct. The only thing I could think of was that the lifting bolt had been changed at one point. Every other 1219 I have worked on had two C clips one went under the positioning sleeve and one went on top then the guild was place on last. If the two washers you have do not fit into the cylinder then put the compression spring on the lifting bolt and put it into the cylinder. Then put the two washers on then the positioning sleeve and then the one C clip and finally the guild. Before you assemble the rest of the mechanism with the turntable right side up install the counter weight and then the cartridge sled minus the stylus ( no need to damage it) set the tracking force a bit heavy and reach under the turntable and push up on the lifting bolt. Check to see if the positioning sleeve can be adjusted correctly and also check how slow the tonearm is dropping. You can add or remove damping fluid at this time to adjust the drop rate to your liking. I hope this make sense and I hope this helps.

Hugues TR4
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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Hugues TR4 » 11 Nov 2019 13:09

Actually, according to the parts list at the end of the Service Manual, this washer #186 was only present on the early models (up to unit 140 999).
All models I worked on (all post- 141 000) had one c-clip below and one above the #212 positioning sleeve, right under the #211 "guide" (upper steuerpimpel"), and no washer #186.
Just to complete Musicmn's very detailed and accurate description.
This just applies if your 1219 is a very early one.
Hugh

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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Peter Smart » 11 Nov 2019 19:11

Thanks both of you answering.

I have the bolt with one slot. I have one c-clip and two washers. Do I understand you right in believing the two washers to be redundant?

Hugues TR4
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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Hugues TR4 » 11 Nov 2019 19:31

No, if your 1219 belongs to the pre-141 000 serial number. If they are there, it is for some good reason.
They have changed a few things in the functioning of certain parts since.
Cheers,

Hugh

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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Peter Smart » 12 Nov 2019 08:12

I have put the cue-parts together with the two washers under the sleeve, and the c-clip on top of the sleeve. The guild on top. The arm is kind of locked in a lifted position, not possible to adjust.

Hugues TR4
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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Hugues TR4 » 12 Nov 2019 12:01

Hi Peter,

Did you make a note or a pic when you disassembled the cueing system?
According to the exploded view in the SM, the washers seem to be set on the piston #187 before the #185 compression spring, then the #212 positioning sleeve, then the 1.5 c-washer (clip), and on top, the #217 guide.
Didn't you put too much silicone oil into the sleeve?
Unfortunately, I couldn't help you more in this as I've only worked on post 141 000 1219/1229.
Wish Klaus could chime in!
A little visit on his website dualcan.com could be informative.
Good luck,
Cheers,

Hugh

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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Peter Smart » 12 Nov 2019 18:56

No, I did not take a picture. I figured the servicemanual to be the advise I needed. I was wrong and now I am sitting here.The two washers dont fit inside the cylinder, they are too wide. I have tried many ways, but can`t get it to work.

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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by mikepick » 12 Nov 2019 20:12

Hi Peter:

I just worked on an older 1219, and I recall having two washers and one e-clip. More so because I noted the difference when I swapped the sleeve for one from a 1218—they are the same sleeve, but the 1218 had two e-clips.

I can't quite recall how they assembled but I think the washers go on, then the e-clip, and finally the sleeve. This means that you can completely unscrew the sleeve if you unscrew it too far—but you shouldn't need to to get the arm height adjustment correct. I can't verify this, as I can't see under the sleeve, but at least I can say that the e-clip belongs under the sleeve.

The German manual that you can download here has the exploded view for the older model 1219. It shows the e-clip (182) below the sleeve (212), and the pimpel (211) directly above the sleeve. It also shows the two washers (186) but to the side, not in the stack, interestingly.

(The original sleeve on my 1219 seemed to be stripped somewhat at close to max height, and the 1218 sleeve proved to work properly. The stripped sleeve was in turn ok on the 1218 as it doesn't seem to need as much height extension to function.)

Mike

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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Peter Smart » 13 Nov 2019 16:06

I have placed the two washers, the the e-clip, the sleeve and at last the pimpel. The cue seems to work well now - thanks to all of you. Now it is time to adjust the tonearm movement. i hope the manual is better on this point.

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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Peter Smart » 13 Nov 2019 19:57

It seems that the tonearm moves as it should when adjusted very low. When I adjust it to 23,5 mm between the record surface and the headshell it gets blocked, and can`t be lowered.

Hugues TR4
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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Hugues TR4 » 13 Nov 2019 20:21

Take a look at locating screw #54. It has more meaning than you would expect. If adjusted too tight, it keeps the arm from lowering normally.
Good luck,
Cheers;
Hugh

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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by mikepick » 13 Nov 2019 20:44

Peter Smart wrote:
13 Nov 2019 19:57
It seems that the tonearm moves as it should when adjusted very low. When I adjust it to 23,5 mm between the record surface and the headshell it gets blocked, and can`t be lowered.
Hi Peter: I took a look at the German manual out of curiosity, which is about the pre-141K models, and it does not have the 23.5mm illustration, but only the illustration showing the tonearm max 8mm off the record surface. So I would follow that direction.

In any case, you only need to worry about the cue lever in SP, since it is disabled for MP in the early models, so the adjustment only need lift the needle off the bottom record.

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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by Peter Smart » 15 Nov 2019 07:45

I tried #54. Can`t figure what it does. Also adjusted the tonearm to 8 mm in upright position. Problem is that I have touched the other adjustment screws on the top of the player.. How do I proceed when everything on top is out of adjustment.

mikepick
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Re: Dual 1219 cue problem

Post by mikepick » 15 Nov 2019 14:07

The Locating Screw (54) determines the upper limit of vertical tonearm lift.

The top adjustments that matter are between the positioning sleeve (212) and (54). Fig. 11 in the manual describes how to make the adjustment, but it is not very clearly written. There is a post by Klaus aka dual can here somewhere that I found that describes it in more detail in particular for the early 1219s.

First off though, does your auto functionality work right at the moment? If it does, then you shouldn't need to make this adjustment.

If it doesn't work and you need to make this adjustment, it requires switching it to MP mode, and I don't know if you have dealt with the rubber bushing yet, which you should do before changing between SP and MP.

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