Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

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mikepick
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Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 26 Sep 2019 17:05

Hey folks:

I've got a 1219 that I won on the auction site, it arrived nicely packed and is in very good condition from a visual standpoint. It was, however, locked up with old grease and so required a thorough going over.

Much of the initial cleanup went very smoothly—the speed controls, the cam and the start/stop levers were straightforward. The motor had a light buzz, so I dismantled it and cleaned it up and now its running silently.

The tonearm has been vexing, though. I ordered a new lift washer and pimpel from Don, and after some reading decided to remove the tonearm entirely to clean up the assembly. Good news is that the dearing ring appears to be in good condition, and after a few tries I got it assembled properly so that it now passes the bearing test on both single and multi modes, it was a devil to get it right so that it did not bind in the "guide piece".
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So now I am trying to get the auto start working.

A big problem that I am having is that I cannot get the infamous Figure 11 adjustment right. If the tonearm is adjusted that high, I run out of bushing nut thread—it just pops off. Perhaps the issue is just that the nut is stripped.

The other thing I wonder about is the interplay between he linking lever adjustment nut and the pimpel. If I adjust the lift point of the linking lever to push the piston high enough, the main lever does not have good contact with the pimpel. But if the linking lever is adjusted to a smaller lift, it cannot get the arm up enough to clear the rest.
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Attached are a few pics, it's an earlier model 1219 with pencil markings under the platter, dunno what it refers to.
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mikepick
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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 26 Sep 2019 17:17

After posting all this, I realized I have a non-working 1218 and the SM indicates that the "positioning sleeve" of the 1219 is the same part number as the "set housing" on the 1218. I'll compare the two to see if there is any difference.

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by Hugues TR4 » 26 Sep 2019 18:21

The positioning sleeve (212) is identical to its 1218's little sister.
You could try and fit it on the 1219. It should work and solve your problem if the issue lies in the sleeve thread.
Also remember that you have a pre-141.000 and that the manual is mostly dedicated to the later model.
I think the main difference is in the cue lifting not operating in "multi" position (modified main lever came later).
I overhauled four 1219's so far, but never came across your model unfortunately.
Try making the adjustments with the lever on "single".
Sorry I can't help more. I've only got two post 141.000's on my bench presently…
Cheers,

Hugh

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mrow2 » 26 Sep 2019 20:03

Hi This is difficult to resolve from afar, and more so because it's an early model. I agree with Hugues that adjustments are advised to be made in single mode. I'm not clear if the difficulty in clearing the arm rest is also in single mode, i.e. does it work correctly and clear the arm rest in single play? The markings might well belong to the primary assembling lady at production.

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 26 Sep 2019 20:42

Thanks Hugh. I think the other area of difference in the early models is the linking lever, where on the 1229 the end under the main lever is more of a straight-forward hook, I believe. On this model you can see the adjustable end between the main lever and the lift pin.

It's the same in Single mode, the tonearm lifts slightly but not enough to clear the rest. I'll try the adjustments there perhaps once I get the positioning sleeve off the 1218 to compare. The German manual in the library, which seems to be for the models, also advises making the piston adjustment in Multi mode (as far as I can read) and so I've been trying to go by the book.

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 27 Sep 2019 15:52

I've swapped the positioning sleeves and the new sleeve does seem to have more threading, so I can adjust higher without it popping off.

I can't quite figure out that height adjustment, as described in the manual. I know I saw a post from Klaus that spelled it out in more detail, need to search for it.

At this point the tonearm is lifting, and nudges slightly towards the record but ultimately drops back down on the rest again.

The tonearm passes the horizontal bearing test and there doesn't seem to be any binding. I'm wondering if I have something wrong in the cam or levers.

One other issue I'm having is with auto return. Return triggers as it should in the end groove area, and the tonearm with return partway but stop in at about the 10" record point. This also seems to reset the tonearm movement zone, so that the arm cannot be manually pushed back beyond the 10" drop point, unless I run a Start sequence.

Something I haven't done yet is to remove and clean the shut-off slide, but I'm not sure that will help.

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 27 Sep 2019 17:45

This thread has a lot of helpful info:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 7&t=100282

One thing I am going to try is working a bit on the main lever, along with trying to get that lift adjustment right.
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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 27 Sep 2019 22:44

Took a moment to dress the main lever and swapped in a different pimpel, and some success... the Start sequence now works (somewhat) in Multi (the needle falls a tiny bit short of the edge of the record.) Ran this test also with the stacker spindle in, and the drop worked.

Still no Start in Single mode, and still the same vexing Return issue, where the needle returns to the 10"' drop point, in both Single and Multi. In Single the needle barely grazes the record surface on the attempted return. (I'm using a test beater record.)

It looks to me like it's not possible to make the lift adjustment in Single mode, the tonearm simply won't raise to the top of the rest post, the locating screw will not let it go high enough.

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 28 Sep 2019 00:12

I may have found the culprit in the Return issue, I believe the pawl 255 is binding enough to trip up auto return and lock the tonearm in that position. I hadn't cleaned that up yet, so I'll get in at it I guess.

Related to that, do we have an available substitute for Molycote grease? Or is that something that is available, Klaus has advised that in the past for this particular part.

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by Hugues TR4 » 28 Sep 2019 09:54

I use Dow Corning Molykote (Midland, Michigan, USA) with success. Think it is still available in 100 gms tubes (enough to service about 500 1219's!)
One important part of the whole automatic process in most Dual's is the "grooved axle" 176 and its related levers.
If, even slightly, impeded by old grease, it could also indirectly act on the pawl's action.
The best is getting it out (remove the counter nut on the top side of the chassis first), clean and polish it (against 1200 grit paper with a hand drill) and, following Klaus' advice, lube with chain oil before reassembly.
I'm doing that with every Dual now and it works first class.
Have you also serviced the cam wheel as per Klaus' manual on top of this forum?
While your beast is open and her belly reachable, you better do everything you can! It's for the next forty years!
I just successfully adjusted the arm movements with the aid of fig.11 and fig.13/14. Sometimes frustrating as a tiny change can be either too little or too much…
Good luck and enjoy the challenge! It will all eventually come right!
Cheers,

Hugh

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 28 Sep 2019 17:08

I did that whole grooved axle / switch arm assembly earlier on, yes, as it was locked up really tight and took some effort to disassemble.

I did not deal with the pawl, though, as I have had a hard time with that part on a prior unit and this one seemed to move freely. However, it seems like it’s getting hooked on the post on Return in this case.

I dressed the main lever some more and was rewarded with a little more movement on Single mode, so I think it’s getting closer. At this point I need to shelve it for a few days but in the meantime I put in the order for Molykote paste.

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 04 Oct 2019 23:01

Back on this, my tube of Molykote G-n showed up in the mail and when I had some time I set to work freeing the pawl and cleaning it up.

Turned out it was not assembled correctly, the washer was below the pawl, next to the chassis, so I suppose the pawl was getting hung up on the e-clip on return. Auto return now seems to work on Multi and Single.

So a small victory. Now it's down to figuring out the tonearm height adjustment, I think. I can get it close in multi mode but in single it's not swinging the arm out much if at all. I may give the main lever another dressing with the sandpaper as well, the worn area was pretty smoothed out originally.

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by Hugues TR4 » 05 Oct 2019 21:03

Hi Mike,

Adjusting the tonearm position/movements has always been demanding a lot of thinking and trial/error on a 1219, in one word, a PITA!
You have three different adjustment positions (fig. 11, fig.13 and fig.14) and all of them have to match each other.
Every time I manage a real fine tuning (usually... every time), I have to think afterwards how I did! But it is doable!
Do everything in sequence (11/13/14) from scratch. Remember that sometimes, a 10th of a screw turn is a lot.
Sorry I cannot be with you to try with you!
Good luck and enjoy (so nice when you succeed!),
Cheers,

Hugh

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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by mikepick » 07 Oct 2019 05:14

Thanks Hugh for the encouragement.

After my last post I pulled the main lever and dressed it a little more with the 220 grit paper, and also corrected a bit of slop in the main lever mount—it had some play back and forth so I tightened it a little more so it moves side to side, if a little stiffly.

And that seemed to do it! Now have auto working on multi and single, and auto-return as well. Spun a few yesterday on it and it worked without fail, so I’ve now moved it into the rotation and put on my V15 Type IV.

I’ll have to take some nicer pics for the appreciation thread, but here it is on the bench. Did quite a bit of work on the base as well.
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Re: Dual 1219 Tonearm Movement Issues

Post by Hugues TR4 » 07 Oct 2019 09:01

Hip Hip Hurrah! Well done Mike!
This main lever bracket (200) has to be quite stiff indeed. On the first models, also on the early post 144.000, it was supported by two bearing balls rolling on the chassis. Dual reduced it later to one in a slot.
I usually had to work a little on the spring 201 to stiffen it a bit.
Here could also be applied a little Molykote.
Congrats for the nice work!
Enjoy it!

Cheers,
Hugh

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