Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

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andysomnifac
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Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by andysomnifac » 09 Sep 2019 14:36

Hi all,

I just picked up a Dual 1019 which has a couple of small mechanical issues:
https://i.imgur.com/kAguhYy.png
https://i.imgur.com/zvnsZCB.png
(seller's images, not mine)

So, it's in what I assume is not the original cabinet. The cabinet is in good condition with a couple of small cracks in the acrylic on the right corner, which I can live with.

The good: When plugged in, hooked up and the needle dropped on a record it plays fine. So far, so good.

The less good:
  • When plugged in the platter continuously spins and will not shut down. The different speed settings work properly, but I'm sure I don't want this thing spinning constantly.
  • The cueing mechanism does not work. It doesn't matter which position the lever is in, I can always move the arm from the home position and drop it into the groove.
Before I start opening things up and poking and prodding, does anyone have any suggestions on where to start? Experience with these issues? Maybe even pictures?

This will be replacing my B&O RX2 turntable, as it will fit in with the more wooden\"vintage" aesthetic of the rest of the gear.

I thank everyone in advance,
Andy

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by Belmont » 09 Sep 2019 16:09

You're dealing with old grease that's gunked up the switch-off lever. I would recommend taking apart the inside (take photos every step of the way from several angles, so you know what goes where and what's the angle of the dangle), wiping off the old grease, and putting on new grease. I use white lithium on the friction points, and sewing machine oil on the motor and spindle. Other people probably have their own preferences. Download the service manual to get an idea of how everything works.

Pay special attention to cleaning out the cam gear, using the guides posted at the top of this subforum. Be careful to not lose any of the tiny springs in the cam gear, they're *all* vital. It's complicated and kinda dirty, but it's worth it. I'm going to be cleaning out my 1019 later today once my new spring arrives in the mail (because I lost the tiiiiiny W spring in the cam gear), so I'd be willing to provide pics and advice.

As for the cueing mechanism, there should be a hidden screw up top between the platter and tonearm that adjusts how high the arm lifts up. There also might be old grease in the cueing assembly. Does it lift up in Automatic mode, if that mode works at all?

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by andysomnifac » 10 Sep 2019 00:28

Belmont,

Thanks for the tips. If this were simply checking the condition of individual components and resoldering/soldering things I'd feel a little more comfortable. Mechanical linkages and adjustments are a different matter.

Given the table's age, dried out lube sounds definitely reasonable. As I said, it just came into my possession for what I felt was a reasonable price, so I don't know it's repair/maintenance history.

The auto start does work, at least on the 12" size selection. I didn't check the others. When I plug the table in all looks good. I put an LP on the platter and move the switch to start and the tonearm lifts of the rest and move to the lead in groove and drops properly and the switch moves back to the center position. I can switch it to stop and the tonearm raises and moves back to the home position properly but the platter continues spinning. I then started the play cycle again, but manually moved the arm just shy of the run-out groove to see if the auto return worked. I didn't. I had to move the switch to stop.

At no time during this test did the cueing lever do anything to raise and lower the arm manually. This may be a dumb question, and since I didn't test it I have to ask: does the main switch need to be on Manual for the cueing lever to work? I'd imagine not, but no dumb questions, right?

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by Solist » 10 Sep 2019 17:15

Oh, looks to be in very nice condition!

I think its an original plinth. If you are in the US, there were a couple of companies which made plinths for Dual turntables, since some of these were shipped without a plinth.

It might be a rare plinth, I will let someone else chim in.

As far as for servicing it, I would strongly suggest doing a full restoration. I did it on mine 1019, and it spins without a problem ever since.

The motor constantly running was an issue I could not figure on mine. It was not dried lube, so I let the technician solve the problem. He was not home when I picked the turntable, so I am still not sure where the problem was.

In regard to service:

The whole mechanism on the bottom can be divided in three sections:

-Idler mechanism and motor. You can disassemble just the idler mechanism on work on it. There is a spring right next to the motor. If detached it will let you work on just that part.
d1.jpg
(235.3 KiB) Downloaded 115 times
Its not that hard. Disassemble, clean and reassemble. And it might be worth taking some pictures. Careful about those springs. They like to fly off and take the washers with them.

There is a lot written in the forums about which oils to use. For the idler wheel and platter shaft use adhesive oil, it must be safe on colored metals. Originally ISO 68 was used (Renotac 342), although you might want to try ISO 100. Always clean all the old oil. Some oils if mixed, will make a chemical reaction after some time. You dont want that. Sintered bearings require some extra patience. Isoprohyl alcohol is a good way to remove the old oil.

You can also sand the outer edge of the idler wheel, that way you remove the hardened part of the rubber .Dont go crazy with the sanding, remove just enough until you can see the dark rubber underneath. The idler wheel needs to be slightly tipped >. Easiest way to achieve that is to fix the idler wheel on a drill and then use some sandpaper glued on a piece of wood. I would recommend the finnest grit you can find. You want the idler to be as smooth as possible.

Next you can move to the cam, tonearm mechanism and finally platter bearing. Leave the motor until last. That motor does not like to be upside down (oil leaking from the bearing making it dry).

There are full service manuals on the dualcan site for the cam and motor:

https://dualcan.tumblr.com/servicetips

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by andysomnifac » 10 Sep 2019 19:21

Solist,

Thanks. Based on others that I've seen, I think (and my thinking is always tenuous at best) the plinth is a United Audio option.

At this point I'm thinking I've going to order a replacement steuerpimpel, grease, and felt washer and PDF guide from mrow22 on eBay. That would likely give me both the proper items I need to get the repair started, and I'm hoping that the PDF guide will cover the basics of the procedures that will be needed.

In the meantime, I'm watching cleaning/lubrication procedures on other similar type Dual turntables. I'm less apprehensive about going into it at this point. Hopefully, the PDF will further help that. I've looked at 1019 images on the dualcan Tumblr site, but w/o commentary and/or context I'm not always sure what I'm looking at. Maybe that will change once I have the table in front of me.

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by Solist » 11 Sep 2019 08:12

Right, I forgot mrow made a pdf guide :D Worth buying, it really looks like he put a lot of effort into it.

You just need some patience, and dont apply too much force to any part. I forgot to add that, there is a plastic washer on top of the idler wheel. You need to put a finger under the idler mechanism to counter the force when you are pushing that sucker out. Otherwise you risk to bend the lever underneath.

And really take you patience with the motor. It often happens that the shell of the motor is almost glued to the stator. You need separating pliers to remove the housing safely. Stick them on the side where the plastic tube for the screw is situated, and then apply little force on one side and move to the other. It might take 30min to get the housing apart the first time, but if you rush this part you will probably cause delamination of the stator.

Same when putting the motor back together. Work your way slowly, first one side then the other, and give it a couple of taps with a small hammer from side to side to realign the rotor. The rotor should spin freely after you have done that.

For cleaning the sintered bearings of the motor, I have found that the old way was to soak the bearing in isoprophyl for a couple of hours, and the put it in a syringe filled with isoprohyl. Then all you need to do is to put a finger on top of the hole and push the syringe lever so you create a vacuum. You should see bubbles coming out of the bearing pores. Repeat it a couple of times until you see no more bubbles.

Then let it dry for a couple of hours, and to put the new oil back into the pores, heat the oil to about 60 degrees celsius and soak the bearing for 2 hours. This will get the new oil back into those tiny pores.

I tried it and it made a lot of difference in the way that bearing spun.

The top bearing is hard to disassemble, so just a really good cleaning with q tips and isoprophyl should do it.

And check in what condition the copper plate under the bottom bearing is. If only 1 side has wear you can flip it. If both sides are worn you could try and sand it until you remove all the wear.

I made a new copper plate, (1,8mm thick) and it was a night and day difference in how the motor performed.

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by andysomnifac » 11 Sep 2019 15:07

I will certainly keep all of that in mind, but before I get overzealous in my disassembly of stuff, would you touch the motor if it doesn't exhibit any signs or symptoms of issues? At the moment it send to spin fine and it's quiet. The only motor related issue I currently have is the constant spin, which seems more mechanical linkages related than anything.

I just don't want to get into somewhere that's not exhibiting an issue and then cause one.

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by Solist » 11 Sep 2019 16:33

If it spins quietly then you can leave it alone. But at first signs of noise it should be serviced.

And of course, dont let that motor constantly spin otherwise it will overheat.

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by andysomnifac » 12 Sep 2019 02:49

Absolutely. I have it unplugged, safe and sound until I can give it the attention it needs.

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by DSJR » 12 Sep 2019 10:10

Amazing how a few months away almost erases people - I refer to Dualcan who's knowledge on Duals is phenomenal. take a look on his site for full stripdown pics to complement the excellent advice in posts above.

The cueing device once working must only lift the arm a small distance from the record as explained in the manuals. It's not like later models that were designed to lift the arm up 'fully.' Set too high and the linkages don't fully retract, adding to tonearm fiction across the record.

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by mrow2 » 12 Sep 2019 23:57

My recollection as re: the cabinet (I have had a couple in the past and shamefully let them go to other homes) is that they were dealer-aftermarket upgrades offered by the better dealers as a trade-up from the relatively cheap United Audio base and cover units, which were sold separately from the deck. Some customers were having them put into custom wall installations back in the day, walnut, oak, maple etc cabinetry the entire width of the wall with custom spaces for all the gear. I don't know what these nicer cabinets cost, but it seems like triple the cost of a UA base might have been possible, and maybe somewhat more. There are a surprising number of them around, in the U.S. based on what I've come across. They restore very nicely. No idea if there was more than one shop making them but I would guess there might have been. The inside plinths were made for Garrard, Miracord and the like, so the dealer would need only to stock the cabinets plus whichever cutout was needed. I am surmising, but I noted that the inside piece is held with 4 screws and comes out easily. I modified one once from a Garrard to a Dual, and it was kind of a hassle as I had to add a little piece of wood and color match it so that there would not be any gaps.

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by andysomnifac » 13 Sep 2019 15:28

I've seen a couple of different outer designs that were just *slightly* different, mostly in how the plexi (acrylic?) fits into the cover. This would lead me to agree that there was probably more than one shop that was actually making the outer box. I haven't taken the turntable itself out of the cabinet yet (I put in an order from your eBay store this morning, @mrow2), but it seems like a reasonable hypothesis that the 4 screws allowed for a common outer box w/ a specific mounting board for different manufacturers.

The only issue with mine is that there are a few small hairline cracks in the plexi towards the right front corner. I can live with them, but I'd certainly be willing to listen if anyone has had any experience minimizing the appearance of these types of cracks.

There's currently an identical unit on eBay. It also looks to be in good physical condition, but by the time it is shipped it would be more than 2x what I paid, already knowing what issues I would be facing instead of not knowing the operating condition until it arrived.

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by mrow2 » 13 Sep 2019 23:11

If the plexi can be removed (I don't have the cabinet in front of me to recall the construction details) without destroying it, then you can certainly have a local plastics shop duplicate the removed piece of acrylic plexi and install that. Clear really looks good these days, so personally I'd abandon any tints. The shop I used for dust covers was charging me about $70 for each stand-alone dust cover including front and back bends and glued sides but I have not had one made for quite a while now. Your 1019 is a real nice one; it should be perfectly restorable. You'll see a couple in my book, and I have more pics available, but your example will look brand new if/when done up nicely. I see the cracks, that's probably the only significant thing wrong with it. A plastics wizard would probably be able to inject one of the chemicals I mentioned in the book... if done just right the cracks might be hidden somewhat. What tells us this is potentially a great unit is the lack of damage to the platter ring and the rest of the cosmetics. The thing looks brand new. Download the factory owner manual and also the service manual (just for referencing specific things, by no means does it cover age-related items; mine is for that). I doubt if it needs a steuerpimpel, just guessing. Did you mention which cartridge it came with? Have fun -- Don

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by andysomnifac » 15 Sep 2019 19:47

Don,

I hadn't, but it's a Pickering XV15.

I've posted a specific question, with pictures, regarding the motor shutoff linkage in a new thread. I figured that specific threads for specific problems might help others in the future.

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: Dual 1019 w/ (hopefully) minor mechanical issues

Post by mrow2 » 15 Sep 2019 21:58

Ok, thanks. I like the Pickering XV15 and have a couple but I'll bet DSJR would have strong thoughts one way or another. I've read that there wasn't a radio station in N. America which didn't own Pickering or Stanton 500 cartridges. As with the others the key to making these little generators perform at their best today would be in the stylus quality. If your stylus is an original, that would be nice. You could try and determine the specs on it.

As re: the main pivot in the 1019, you've touched on one of the most important aspects of servicing. This is in my PDF and I have emphasized the subject but it's not circled in red! Maybe it should be. Cheers, Don

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