505-3 Spindle oil

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Retro-Rob
Austria
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505-3 Spindle oil

Post by Retro-Rob » 19 Jul 2019 18:37

Hi guys,
I know this topic has been explored, debated and generally talked to death..... But believe it or not, this newbie still has no idea what oil to use on my 505-3 spindle.
I've read tons about the 505-1 and 2. But don't they have a different spindle/sub platter?

Do I need a thin oil or a sticky oil?
Sewing machine oil?
Chainsaw oil?
Auto engine oil?
Do I just use a few drops or fill the bushing tube?

I feel like an idiot on this subject so if someone can please let me know what I should buy and how to apply it I will be forever grateful.
Many thanks in advance!

Solist
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by Solist » 26 Jul 2019 17:41

The main thing to get right is the viscosity. So check the service manual for the 505-3 and check what viscosity oil was used.

If you put too thick or too thin oil it might not make a good protective coating, causing metal to metal contact or affecting the w&f.

Apart from the right viscosity, it should also have good adhesive properties (since the bearing is vertical), it must be safe to be used with colored metals, and have extreme pressure additives. That is basically all.

Also make sure you clean the old oil thoroughly before applying the new one, with isoprohyl. Some oils really dont like to be mixed, and they might cause a chemical reaction.

Retro-Rob
Austria
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by Retro-Rob » 30 Jul 2019 17:23

Thanks for that.
I can't seem to find anything about the right viscosity anywhere?!
What is the take on chainsaw chain oil? I've read that it sticks really well...

Solist
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by Solist » 30 Jul 2019 18:49

You can check the 505-1 service manual. Should have the same requirements:
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Many have used the chainsaw oil. You can get the right viscosity for it (100 at 40 degrees). Just make sure its safe on colored metals.

mrow2
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by mrow2 » 30 Jul 2019 20:01

I've seen reverences also to something like Mobil One synthetic 90wt (I think it is multi) Extreme Pressure gear oil as being something to try. In making some of their choices, I've read that Dual (and other makers) would select lubes based on not only the obvious factors (like compatibility with metals etc) but which would also max out their performance specifications (minimizing unwanted noise, vibrations, harmonics, whatever). There are probably several correct answers for this. For certain, a lot of participants have had success with the chain saw oil, strange as that may seem, and evidently there are "good" and "better" grades now, as with all the other types of oil. Several years back, several participants used high quality synthetic engine oil in the spindle, and it would probably be great except that it's not viscous enough and could drip out. Hence the suggestion of the EP gear oil, and chain oil. An advantage with the gear oil is that it is synthetic.

Some time back a few of the threads went off in the direction of which oil would allow a platter to spin the longest, and some impressive claims occurred during that period until an oil engineer or two came on and explained that this particular attribute did not result in the quietest (as measured by some specialized audio harmonic tests) operation. To relate this another way, the longest spin times being achieved were actually resulting in less quiet platter operation. So being quiet is part of the equation. So far no one has shot holes in the use of the synthetic gear oil or high quality Stihl chain oil. I would like to know the practical and functional differences between those two choices.

Solist
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by Solist » 30 Jul 2019 20:43

mrow2 wrote:
30 Jul 2019 20:01
Some time back a few of the threads went off in the direction of which oil would allow a platter to spin the longest, and some impressive claims occurred during that period until an oil engineer or two came on and explained that this particular attribute did not result in the quietest (as measured by some specialized audio harmonic tests) operation. To relate this another way, the longest spin times being achieved were actually resulting in less quiet platter operation. So being quiet is part of the equation. So far no one has shot holes in the use of the synthetic gear oil or high quality Stihl chain oil. I would like to know the practical and functional differences between those two choices.
So, a lighter oil will get you longer spin down times since its not as sticky (best word I could find), but wont lubricate the bearing as well as a heavier oil does, resulting in a noisier bearing?

What kind of viscosity have you tried?

When I switched oils on my 1019, I used Pakelo way lubricant. You can get that in ISO 100 & 68. It was the closest copy of the Renotac I could find.

http://www.pakelo.com/en/project/0050-60-02_eng/

mrow2
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by mrow2 » 31 Jul 2019 07:40

The comments offered by the others who had done some testing indicated more noise was transmitted through the deck
with oils that had the fastest spin times. Someone had recorded the differences. Meanwhile a few participants were in a contest of sorts to see who had come up with the slickest lubricant for the platter bearings. It was shown that platters with the best audio performance were using lubes which didn't necessarily have the absolute fastest free spin time, but allowed for the best isolation regarding bearing noise. This was quite some time ago, and the conversation gradually evolved to the use of chain oil as the most reasonable solution overall, and for some time now, that has been the wisdom in this forum. The next one I do will either be with the Mobil One synthetic 90w EP gear oil or the most premium chain oil I can find. I have not searched for the old threads, but I wanted to caution against reviving the possibly false argument that slick spin times of fifteen minutes or so (I'm kidding) might not be the right thing.

Retro-Rob
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by Retro-Rob » 01 Aug 2019 07:49

Wow, thanks for the info guys! I think I'm going to go down the chain oil route.... I have found one from stihl but it is only semi synthetic, will this matter?
What is so bad about the biodegradable oils?
Cheers!

DSJR
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by DSJR » 01 Aug 2019 14:34

The 505 bearing doesn't take anything like the loading of the earlier auto-changer models. I used to use 'hypoid' EP80 for main bearings but was royally told off because sometimes, the additives in these 'gearbox viscous' oils, can react 'physically' with the often sintered oil-retaining sleeves in many turntable main bearing systems although at platter rotation speeds, you may get away with it - I wouldn't risk it now though. Fine if the sleeves are plain brass (Rega decks for example) but very risky in a Garrard or Dual plus many many others using sintered oil retaining sleeves!

The usual Dual recommendation as a substitute for the renotac (only available in larger quantities, whatever its called now) has in recent times been chainsaw oil (Stihl being a suggested safe one). It's viscous but light enough so won't impede the bearing's operation while staying in place and I gather it's sinter-safe too (happy to be corrected). The main loading point is the tip of the spindle and whatever thrust plate Dual use in these decks. Not saying you should flood the bearing, but make sure this area doesn't get dry.

PLEASE make sure that if a different oil is to be used, to clean the old stuff out first! Chemical reactions can take place and a horrid gooey mess results (old pics in threads here show what happens when new lubes are all but ladeled on top of hardened old stuff on Dual mechs)...

I haven't seen Dualcan post here for ages, hope he's alright as he really is the definitive Dual man among us...

Solist
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by Solist » 01 Aug 2019 17:56

The thing that boggles me is why then it was suggested to use ISO 68 viscosity for the 1019 and 1229? Renotac 342 is ISO68 (according to lini and many others), while renotac 343 is ISO 100.

I hope hes fine, I was wondering also.

mrow2
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by mrow2 » 01 Aug 2019 18:21

I should think semi-synthetic Stihl would be ok. I'd be guessing as well that at these speeds, an excellent EP gear synthetic would not be an issue due to any additives, but after all it's not engine oil. But if Stihl fills the bill, so be it!
PS: according to Dualcan a polluted sintered bearing could be cleaned the usual way and switched to a different oil. Or maybe it was Lini who said that. Also, I've never seen a report of an actual clogged sintered brass bearing. There are a lot of Dual restorers from years past who were using engine motor oil (usually synthetic) on these, before the discussion went in the direction it did. I Have heard of no regrets. Mostly they stay quiet about it, because no one wants to get beat up.

Solist
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by Solist » 01 Aug 2019 18:49

The problem with chain bar oils in Europe is that they all need to be biodegradable because of environmental regulations.

For cleaning sintered motor bearings. I soaked them in isoprophyl and then put them in a syringe with isoprophyl to vacuum them. That got rid of all the old oil in the pores.

Then let them dry out for some time.

To get the oil back in I heated the oil to about 60 degrees C and let it soak for a couple of hours.

This was standard procedure back in the days to service these type of bearings.

Platter sleeve bearing are a bit trickier to deal with. I just use a stupid amount of isoprophyl to clean them.

lini
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by lini » 03 Aug 2019 22:11

Solist: In German home improvement markets you usually can still get both the conventional and the bio-degradable stuff.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

T68
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by T68 » 04 Aug 2019 11:29

Here in Sweden Im having a hard time finding chainsaw oil that´s not biodegradable. What is the risk with using this in a turntable? Is it that you need to relube more often?
Are there any other alternatives to chainsaw oil if you want the adhesive function?

DSJR
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Re: 505-3 Spindle oil

Post by DSJR » 04 Aug 2019 13:39

Solist wrote:
01 Aug 2019 17:56

I hope hes fine, I was wondering also.
Klaus is fine he tells me - just taking a much needed break from turntables ;)

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