Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

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nonost
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Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by nonost » 13 Jun 2019 01:44

Hi guys. I've just saved an old Dual 1214. It was in bad shape but after some work it is behaving very good. I'm using a Shure M75 type D with a Jico replacement stylus. It's tracking nicely at 2g but I feel the anti-skating force too much even at the lowest setting. I wonder if there is some way you could tweak it for a little less force. I think 1.5g would be nice.

Any idea?

Cheers!

mrow2
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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by mrow2 » 13 Jun 2019 18:25

I'd say if it's tracking nicely at 2g then leave well enough alone, it's within spec. I'm not sure about your question re: anti skating but you can look up the "postage stamp" test on sticky here or Dualcan's site and perform that to verify that aspect of tracking is ok. But 2grams for this model on vertical tracking force seems quite right to me, for this cart and stylus. ~D

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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by DSJR » 13 Jun 2019 19:31

The 1214 has an underside adjustment for the anti-skating. There's the usual spring, but it hooks on a dedicated bracket plate with three holes in it to adjust the amount of correction.

On my own 1214, I found the arm and auto-trip assembly would easily allow tracking down to a gramme or so (Shure V15 T2), but like you, the anti-skate was set far too high, even on the minimum setting (the deck came with a Pickering P/AT or similar, tracking at 3g).

I'd take a look at other Dual service manuals (you could start with the more deluxe 1216 service manual) and read about how the anti-skate function works with these decks. The end of the spring that's nearest the horizontal bearing fulcrum (hope I have the correct term, but it's the centre line drawn down through the horizontal bearing axis), if moved nearer to this centre-line, acts less on the tonearm. User adjustable Duals use a cam and lever arrangement to adjust this position from above. On my 1214, I gently bent the fixed bracket slightly (#277) to get the minimum hole closer to the centre line (it's shown in fig 9 in the service manual in the library here) and tracking from 1g - 2g is now excellent with the stash of assorted cartridges I have.

Hope this helps. The 1214 was really designed with either 2 or 4 pole motors for low cost 'borderline HiFi' use (It's actually rather better than that and mine is far quieter through the stylus than my 1019 currently) and the 'proper' HiFi range started more with the 1216 of this era (cast platter and tonearm refinements including user adjustable bias correction - anti-skate)...

nonost
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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by nonost » 14 Jun 2019 11:46

Ey mrow2! I've done the stamp test with a small capacitor that weights 0.20g. The arm goes down without hesitation. Here a pic:
photo_2019-06-14_12-39-42.jpg
(93.3 KiB) Downloaded 82 times
I feel it has too much anti-skating because when I use the cue lever to rise the arm I can see how it jumps to the outside a little bit.

DSJR "trick" seems the way to go. I've taken a look at the service manual but I'm not sure if you bent the bracket once it is installed (with some pliers or whatever) or you just turned the whole piece clockwise before you tighten up the screw.

This thing is amazing. I've run the RPM calculator app and I'm getting results between 0.15% and 0.10%.

Thank you both for taking your time.

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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by DSJR » 14 Jun 2019 12:04

If you can rotate it then perfect (I can't remember now as it was five years ago I adjusted mine - I still think I bent the bracket ever so slightly but the end result works for me perfectly whatever I did).

I'm stunned mine works at all after bad packing trashed the arm, together with its horizontal bearings and rest, scratched the trim plate, but the rest was fine as given to me to 'play with,' it came with a 4 pole motor and the main bearing was un-damaged. Thanks to 'organdonorparts' and a couple of ebay sellers in Germany, the replacement used parts weren't expensive and I reckon the deck is better than ever :D

mrow2
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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by mrow2 » 14 Jun 2019 23:30

I think DSJR answer was better than mine; it's pretty cool that the thing can be made to track and play nicely at between 1 - 2 g. Duals are wonderful!

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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by DSJR » 17 Jun 2019 15:05

The only thing to watch as regards very low tracking weights is that if using auto start, the cueing device MUST be engaged first, because the lowering on auto is rather too abrupt for very delicate vintage styli ;) 1.75g upwards AT's and so on - no problem!

nonost
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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by nonost » 17 Jun 2019 23:24

Tomorrow I will try it and let you know.

BTW, is it ok that the spindle is not spinning with the platter and record? I'd swear the spindle in my 1235 spins. Does it need any lub?

Hugues TR4
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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by Hugues TR4 » 18 Jun 2019 10:50

nonost wrote:
17 Jun 2019 23:24
Tomorrow I will try it and let you know.

BTW, is it ok that the spindle is not spinning with the platter and record? I'd swear the spindle in my 1235 spins. Does it need any lub?
On most higher ranked idler drive Dual's (the ones ending with a "9"), like the 1019, 1219, 1229 etc... the spindle is spinning with the platter to get a better contact with the record in playing mode. On the lower models, like the 1214, 1225... as well as the older PE's, the (simpler) spindle rests on the bottom of the platter pit which "could possibly cause a obstacle to the free spinning".
Some tables feature a different system with a part of the spindle spinning with the platter, like on the PE 2020 or the Elac "Miracord".
No lube required here though.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,

Hugh.

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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by DSJR » 18 Jun 2019 15:28

I use a 3mm cork mat on mine and this grips the spindle enough for it to rotate with the record. No extra noise so I'm happy ;) As it is, the spindle is well enough polished so as not to mess up the record centre hole.

nonost
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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by nonost » 18 Jun 2019 15:51

Ey thanks Hugh! Great info. I've never stopped to think about before. To be honest I would have said that every spindle spins with the platter. I've just checked out that the spindle in my 1235 does spin.

DSJR idea looks great since it will also help the VTA. I will do one cork mat by myself. Does the 3mm works well? I can also have a 5mm one, I'm between the two.

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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by nonost » 20 Jun 2019 13:28

Done it. It's very easy to bend! :D

I've been thinking about what DSJR said about the cue function before pushing "start" and I'm not sure my arm is totally fine. Here a short video:



As you can see, when I push "start" the cue lever goes off. I thought that's the way this model works...In my 1235 the cue lever stays in its position but not in the 1214. Is it ok?

Also I'm worried about the vertical movement of the arm. It works well going down but it can't go higher than the lift height. When the arm is "up" if I try to raise it a little bit I just can't. Then again, in my 1235 I can raise the arm without problem a bit more.

Hugues TR4
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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by Hugues TR4 » 20 Jun 2019 15:14

Just checked on the idler Dual's I've got here (1219 x 3, 1019 x 2 1214 x 2 and 1225) and about half of them release the cueing lever when the start lever is pushed. The others don't … (?) Maybe to do with the amount of silicone oil in the cueing system ?
I seem to remember that the normal way is release though.

Re: vertical movement, the service manual ( page 8, fig. 11) says the stylus height can be adjusted via setscrew 231 from zero to about 1/4".

Hope this helps…

Cheers,

Hugh.

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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by DSJR » 20 Jun 2019 21:09

I think the later decks with similar lift piston to the larger models (and always damped lowering) won't release the cueing lever when cycling, but the earlier models had the facility to engage the cueing device before auto starting and of course the lever would flip back when the main lever lifted the tonearm under automatic control. I can't now remember how my 1229 behaved, but the 601 and 701 don't touch the cueing lever while the 1214, 1009sk2 and 1019 do if it's pre-engaged.

nonost
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Re: Dual 1214. Less anti-skating force?

Post by nonost » 21 Jun 2019 15:16

Hi hugh. I'd guess the 1219 and 1225 don't release the cue lever and the 1019 and 1214 do. I'm aware of how to set the stylus height but to me it looks kind of stiff. Like I said, in my 1235 when I engage the cue lever I can raise by hand the arm a little bit more, I have some air that I don't have with the 1214.

So it looks like it's working as it should be. But I don't see the point in engaging the cue lever before pushing "start", like DSJR said in a previous message. There's something I must be missing.

Thank you both!

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