REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

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WHAMMO_63
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REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by WHAMMO_63 » 11 Jun 2019 04:56

Do any of you fine people have the alignment measurements to plug into the software for the 1225? Which software do you recommend? TIA! I'm using the Nagaoka MP-110 cartridge FYI.

WHAMMO_63
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Re: REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by WHAMMO_63 » 11 Jun 2019 06:02

To clarify: I am looking for the measurements to plug into "Conrad's Arc Template Generator". No sense in re-inventing the wheel if someone has already done the work :wink:

DSJR
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Re: REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by DSJR » 13 Jun 2019 20:13

If we're talking overhang adjustment, this is getting tedious and the sooner someone on eBay markets a printed plastic or resin replacement for the Dual gauge the better :(

If you don't have the original gauge, ANY card type protractor will do. Using the 'hatchings' there, measure 60mm from disc centre (many modern gauges use 65mm from disc centre for the inner point and that's no big deal really) and use this point to set the overhang. 60mm usually gets the fixing screws roughly half way in the carrier slots and 65mm is around 1mm further forward.

Dual did their homework to get the headshell offset angle and pivot to stylus (effective length) right, so fancy-foo gauges with drawings and curves all over are SERIOUSLY NOT NEEDED on Dual's turntables.

Hope the above has helped and not offended. We're not talking top-end oil rig audiophile decks here with newish car-priced tonearms and cartridges where ocd setting up is part of the ritual, but a sensible (good music making) record player most often used with medium priced MM cartridges with today, good quality standard elliptical styli :D

mrow2
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Re: REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by mrow2 » 13 Jun 2019 21:04

Just as FYI -- There are at least two knock-off gauges on eBay US, at least one is injection mold and I think is clear like the original, the other is printed. Unless I am not understanding something..

DSJR's response also explains why one cannot simply swap look-alike headshells (the attached piece) between models without also knowing the part numbers; they must match or angles could be wrong.

Hmmm oil-rig turntables... :) :D :lol:

Japi Roelofs
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Re: REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by Japi Roelofs » 13 Jun 2019 22:42

I guess I will never stop arguing with DSJR about tonearm alignment, but that's alright.

Me, I like to do a little digging in archives, and crunch the numbers in the alignment calculator. I could of course sit on the couch all night and watch stupid TV shows. But rather than watching Elementary, I can be a Sherlock Holmes in my own right...

OK, so first we need to assume the tonearm geometry is the same on the "short armed Duals" (1224, 1225, 1218 etc.), just as the "long armed Duals" (1219, 1229, 701 etc.) share the same geometry.
Dual never really disclosed the dimensions in their manuals, so I dug up an old German test report for the 1214 and 1218, which have identical tonearm geometry.
http://www.hifi-archiv.info/Dual/1214t/ ... 1218_3.jpg

Effective length: 203.4 mm
Pivot to spindle distance: 185.5 mm
Overhang: 17.9 mm
Offset angle: 25.6°

To make this work in Conrad Hoffman's program, you need to customize the groove dimensions:
Inner Groove Radius: 60.27 mm
Outer Groove Radius: 142.56
Alignment method: Stevenson A

Check the alignment calculator here on VE to see what that amounts to:
https://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_ali ... =calculate
You can't see the orange line of the Dual, because it is overridden by the identical green Stevenson line.

So this will be almost the same as DSJR's suggestion of drawing the 60 mm card. However I find that the benefit is that you now have some more lines on the paper: an arc that helps you set overhang, and crosslines that help you set the offset angle. So yes, it takes a bit more time to produce the protractor, but the convenience of having an arc protractor is something that cannot be overstated.

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Re: REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by DSJR » 14 Jun 2019 11:54

Oh FFS...

Japi, Duals do the offset and overhang work for you, we're not fitting any random OEM tonearm with any of usually four nominal effective lengths* to any random turntable arm-board where these things ARE important. I'm arguing the case with DUALs and the engineers at Dual make it so easy to set up a cartridge I don't know why we keep having this conversation :(

Dual did their homework at the design stage and it's the attached HEADSHELLS that decide the offset angle for the effective length of the particular tonearm! The gauge and TK carriers are THE SAME SIZE for all decks using this carrier and the overhang IS THE SAME!!

A TK carrier with any given cartridge, has exactly the same overhang using the gauge or setting on the protractor whether it's my shorter-arm 1214 or longer tonearm 601/701 - honestly - I've done this more times than I care to remember and I regularly swap cartridges about between them!! The earlier 10** series may well be different but I was very kindly given an original plastic gauge which I've used and it seems again as if the nominal 60mm disc centre to inner null point was used.

In fact, it seems Dual used an approx. 58mm disc centre to inner null point if the plastic gauge is the reference, but lets be absolutely honest here, 58mm to 60mm is basically the same and no two records have the same inner groove distance anyway, let alone individual stylus alignment which is better these days I admit!

PLEASE don't obsess about all this as it's seriously not audibly necessary when the work's been done for you by the design engineers. Slight misalignment won't be directly audible and we're not talking fancy-foo diamond profiles here, at least on a 'typical' 1225 installation!

* S'cuse the essay above, but here goes with typical examples - 9" = Linn and SME (the longer Dual arms almost come into this category, the other shorter arms and many Garrards being more like 8.5" I think without checking), 9.5" = Rega family and others, 10" = some Japanese arms by Jelco, vintage Neat arms i have here, 12" = old pro arms, SME and other audiophile confections.

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Re: REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by Japi Roelofs » 14 Jun 2019 12:13

Does anyone know what happened to Spinner45? He was always quick to jump on these 'alignment obsession' threads. Haven't heard from him for a while.

Anyway, I'm just answering the OP's question, which is what the tonearm dimensions are. The reason he asked is that he doesn't have the alignment gauge. Simple as that.

BTW, for reference, here's the dimensions of the 1219 tonearm (taken from actual Dual specs):
Effective length: 222 mm
Pivot to Spindle distance: 203.1 mm
Overhang: 18.9 mm
Offset angle: 25.2°

So definitely not the same.

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Re: REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by Tinkaroo » 14 Jun 2019 12:54

Japi Roelofs wrote:
14 Jun 2019 12:13
Does anyone know what happened to Spinner45? He was always quick to jump on these 'alignment obsession' threads. Haven't heard from him for a while.

Anyway, I'm just answering the OP's question, which is what the tonearm dimensions are. The reason he asked is that he doesn't have the alignment gauge. Simple as that.

BTW, for reference, here's the dimensions of the 1219 tonearm (taken from actual Dual specs):
Effective length: 222 mm
Pivot to Spindle distance: 203.1 mm
Overhang: 18.9 mm
Offset angle: 25.2°

So definitely not the same.
I miss hearing from Spinner too.

I use my Dual alignment gage, but Klaus/Dualcan posted some nice photos with the measurements to align the cartridge on the headshell that can be found with a search. Dual was nice enough to provide the gage with every turntable they sold but most people didn't have a clue what to do with them so they tended to get lost and tossed.

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Re: REQ: Alignment Measurements for the 1225 (and suggestions please!)

Post by nonost » 18 Jun 2019 19:43

And how the hell do I align the cartridge of a Dual 1235? The one with the arm in S. Looks like a final boss to me...I'm kind of lost about alignment yet :S

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