Dual 1219 Skipping

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medericus
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Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by medericus » 15 May 2019 13:46

I just purchased a Dual 1219 turntable on Saturday, and it looks amazing. It is extremely clean, it turns on and the automatic start works well, etc. The issue that I am having is that it is skipping. It will play a few seconds on a track (~5sec) and then repeat, never progressing beyond that point. I checked the tracking force and anti-skate, then balanced the tone arm. When re-balancing, I noticed that the tone arm's lateral movement seems stiff. It doesn't take a lot of force, but it doesn't move if I blow on it, or return to the rest when I add AntiSkate. This is my first automatic Dual, so I'm not completely certain if this is normal, but it did strike me odd. I looked at the mechanisms underneath and the steuerpimpel still looks new, and the O-ring around the tone arm riser bearings is in great shape. Everything seemed very clean, and nothing seemed out of place or was noticeably binding anywhere.

I made a custom protractor from http://conradhoffman.com/chsw.htm and made sure the M91e cartridge is aligned. Honestly, I've done that and rebalanced a half a dozen times "just to be sure". I just ordered a new stylus thinking that maybe these tone arms are just a tiny bit stiffer than I'm accustomed to, and somehow the needle is just, I dunno, possessed? I'm grasping at straws.

Can anyone think of something I'm missing?

-Jack

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by DSJR » 15 May 2019 17:16

Duals should really be the LAST auto decks one ever buys, not the first - the 1219 is among the fussy ones too, so PLEASE, download the service manuals here in the library, as well as the 1229 model, which may have alternative diagrams of what is basically a fairly similar mechanism. If you're unsure, buy an old cheap Garrard or BSR to practise on, as these are more bomb-proof.

Maintenance as regards the pimpel and rubber sleeve around the tonearm height 'stops' (look at mrow2 site for pimpels, basic servicing and grease) MUST be done and I'm hoping the dearing ring is still undamaged and the arm gimbal assembly not flopping about.

The Dualcan site is also the reference point for decks like this with many many pictures of a full stripdown, motor service and dearing ring repair if you're unlucky.

These are wonderful record playing machines if you get 'em working right and adjusted properly (adjustment may be the cause of your woes), but they do need work after forty five plus years and often a few amateur owners...

Alignment of the cartridge won't cure sticking (check underneath for fouling tonearm under-linkages and a screw which can bind on them). I'm repeating this again, but the inner null point for overhang on a card protractor is approx. 60mm from disc centre on these Duals (they did the rest of the arm geometry properly so you don't have to!). I've confirmed this time after time with Dual's original gauge which slips over the carrier! Once the arm binding issue is fixed and if tracking and 'sibilance' is of issue with a pattern stylus - it is with one I have here - then I'd treat the 1219 to something like an AT VM95 EN or higher, which should clearly out-perform any old Shure I think. Reviews, measurements and sound-bites on the German Lowbeats site (you'll need a browser-translator).

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by mrow2 » 15 May 2019 19:02

You should probably straight away spend a little time learning about the Dearing Ring issue with this model and a few others. If the "ears" of the little brittle cylinder part inside the tonearm shaft area are damaged or missing (this relates to the single/multi shift device near the gimbal). Paragraph 2 and 3 of DSJR post above also mention this. Regardless, with patience it's all fixable and the issues may not be that serious -- several things can cause lateral movement resistance. But this one is the most challenging. All these units need a servicing when being brought back to life again.

medericus
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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by medericus » 16 May 2019 15:29

Thank you both for your replies. I have the service manual and the set up guide and I have searched through these forums looking for an answer. The Dearing ring seems to be in fine shape.
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The TT was serviced before I purchased it, and, as I said before, everything looks like it is in really good shape.
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The auto functions work perfectly, etc. It's just that the tonearm doesn't seem to have enough lateral play in it.
I have been going over the service manual trying to see if I can find something that rattled out of place during shipping that may have caused this to happen. So far I can't find anything.
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I am sure there is something simple that I am overlooking. I am going to print out the DIY Service Guide for the 1219 posted on this site by gridleakrick today and see if that offers any insights when I get home from work. Maybe I can find a glass table or something to put the player up on so I can more easily view it in action and see what is causing the friction.
Again, if anyone has any ideas, please let me know. If it doesn't help me, it will certainly help the next person that has a similar issue.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by medericus » 16 May 2019 15:56

Reading through the DIY guide, I have a suspicion that it may be that the guide (219) for the textured metal tone arm plate (181) may be out of adjustment or just loose. That will be the first thing I check this evening.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by DSJR » 16 May 2019 16:57

The pimpel isn't too deep is it? Many Duals had their pimpels mounted on sprung studs - just a sideways thought...

Watch while you manually move the arm back and forth. The long indexing lever, which was incorporated into the cueing device links on later decks, is a separate entity on these and is brought up into play at the beginning of the cycle and dropped back almost at the end with a muted 'click' (just before the start-stop 'flipper' is returned to neutral with a slightly louder 'click'). On the 1249 and possibly these, there's one of the trim? fixing screws that can slightly bind on the tonearm under-linkage as the arm is moved around.

Forgive my lack of part numbers just now, but the long trip lever runs on a ball bearing and if the ball is missing or dislocated, the arm will bind slightly and you'll hear a scraping noise as you move the arm back and forth.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by medericus » 16 May 2019 19:34

There is good clearance with the pimpel, and the bearing for the shut off slide (158) is present and seems to be unobstructed. I will check to see if there is a fixing screw binding.
Looking at some of the pictures I took of it last night, I was wondering if there should be more clearance between the inner and outer rings of the gimbal. It doesn't appear if that is something that can be adjusted, however. Perhaps I can spray some cleaner in there to make sure there isn't some dirt slowing things down? Not sure if this is advisable, so please feel free to shout noyouidiot! before I do something devastatingly stupid.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by mrow2 » 16 May 2019 22:45

It is one symptom of the segment guide usually gray or black molded plastic, touching the segment as you have noted. It's discussed in my own PDF guide and I am embarrassed to say I probably went through a part of a day trying to figure it out. But in any event if it is not that then just keep studying it until the answer presents itself. One participant found dirt/grease resistance inside an otherwise healthy but kind of obstructed Dearing ring lift cylinder; another found a tiny foreign object rubbing both parts of the assembly, thus causing skipping. The "ears" were ok. A misbehaving trip lever can catch something or hang up on the nicked ball or track it rides upon; rare but it is something to look at too.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by tep392 » 17 May 2019 15:58

When I adjusted the guide on mine, I loosened the screw just enough so I could slide the guide up and down. I moved the guide to it's max and min height, marking the location of the screw for each position. Then I centered the screw between the marks and tightened. The plate moves freely without contacting the guide.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by mrow2 » 18 May 2019 18:41

And yet the tonearm still skips? Is this random, occasional, or in the same part of a record in each play? Are the tonearm wires completely free from obstruction as they come out from the tonearm shaft underneath, with some extra play there to be certain there is no possible resistance? Sometimes just pinching them up and a different way can make a difference. Long shot, though. Shutoff slide and ball (158, 159) not hanging up? Not real likely but hard to detect without careful study, and a possible cause. Still could be a fuzz clump inside the single/multi Dearing mech. I'd use an air-duster on the tonearm mechanism before I committed to any disassembly. Only my own thoughts though, Klaus would not like this. In some way, shape or form this is resolvable with enough patience.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by vinylrayk » 18 May 2019 21:40

mrow2 wrote:
18 May 2019 18:41
Are the tonearm wires completely free from obstruction as they come out from the tonearm shaft underneath, with some extra play there to be certain there is no possible resistance? Sometimes just pinching them up and a different way can make a difference.
My brain is leaning in this same direction. As I look at the photos I see that the tonearm wires are taped to the chassis on their way to the muting switch, and the end towards the tonearm base looks rather taught. I looked at my 1219 and the cable hangs down freely with a nice, easy moving, lazy loop.

Ray K

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by DSJR » 19 May 2019 00:41

Good call...

I can't remember if my 1229 had its cables taped. Garrard did this, but always left some slack around the tonearm. That tape looks newish to me - I wonder if the service person was trying to be neat and tidy here? The twin cables on these decks should have some free-play as they hang down behind the pivot gimbals and musn't be snagged underneath on their way to the terminal block as the arm moves back and forth. My 1019 needed some careful cable dressing I remember and very slight issues here on mine are the setting of the lateral ball races I think.

When testing lateral friction, Dual recommend (I believe) balancing the arm out and setting the bias (anti-skate) to 0.25g then placing the arm at side-end and watching it move smoothly back to the rest position with no catching or stiction. My later Duals will do this if the bias is set for 0.1g with absolutely no issues to free smooth movement.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by mrow2 » 19 May 2019 06:22

It might be that some were taped and others were not; looks familiar, like what they used I think. I recall seeing tape but in my own photo which I have used in my PDF Guide, there isn't any. vinylrayk might be on to something. This one (Medericus' photo attached, enlarged sharpened and cropped) makes it seem like the lady sticking it all together was running low on tonearm-wire and economizing a bit. Geez, almost no way to check except maybe remove the tape carefully and re-orient the wires, thus determining if there is sufficient slack. Seems like the ones I have encountered have had a bit more looseness I'm thinking as well. To remedy, I wonder if 4 half-inch extensions at the mute switch (delicate, must be done neatly and I'd insulate them too) would give just a little more slack where it is needed. Or maybe better yet, remove most of the tape and only have a half inch of it near the mute switch (or maybe none at all). Might free up a few mm of wire and resolve the issue, if this is even the cause of the skipping. But it would bother me if it was mine and I didn't do anything.

(Medericus' photo, cropped and sharpened) The wires are fairly snug from the tape to under the tonearm.
Dual 1219 medericus bb.jpg
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My PDF Guide image (cropped), which I've used to identify numerous Dual parts in the version I've used in the guide.
Wires are seen to be much more loose.
Don's 1219 No.5 underside aa.jpg
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medericus
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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by medericus » 19 May 2019 20:45

This is a fantastic insight. I’ll go carefully remove that tape on those wires and see if that makes the difference.
In response to an earlier question, it skips no matter which track you put it on. Plays for a few seconds then repeats ad nauseam.

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Re: Dual 1219 Skipping

Post by medericus » 19 May 2019 22:55

I removed the tape, made sure the wires move relatively freely, then re-adjusted the tone arm plate guide, checked the balance of the tone arm, etc. Now it will play more, but is still skipping. The skipping now is more aggressive toward the begging of the record, and lessens the further down it goes. By the last third of the album, it is not skipping at all. This is a massive improvement! Obviously I have more work to do, but at least it doesn't seem as hopeless as before.

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