Dual definitely still making turntables

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DSJR
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Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by DSJR » 11 May 2019 10:15

http://www.my-hiend.com/vbb/showthread. ... how/page11

Hope it's alright to link to this. Ignore the expensive bling-fi at the top and scroll down to post #102.

New? CS526 with-505 esque parts by the looks of it...

Loads of very highly expensive oligarch-grade stuff shown in this exhibition. No idea how much of it is actually any good at reproducing music though. ymmv though on this point ;)

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by DSJR » 11 May 2019 12:59

P.S. It looks as if the 505-4 is now the thick end of a grand in UK money (I thought it sold for £450 or so, but I think I'm £300 out). The 455 I know, which was the beer-budget end of vinyl (the lower models had fixed record spindles I remember and were very flimsy in feel), is now around £500 I believe. The 560 I mentioned is around £900 it seems.

How much would a 721 be today?

lini
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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by lini » 12 May 2019 12:08

DSJR: Actually the CS526 already is old news. New at the High End 2019 are the CS445 and CS465 as well as a prototype named CS800.

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by DSJR » 12 May 2019 16:40

We didn't do much with the cheaper auto decks like the 455, as they tended to sound rather muffled (could be cartridge, but the flimsy flexible? sub-chassis never inspired confidence. I believe Thorens dressed the plinth up, put their name on it and significantly increased the price from memory -

https://www.hifonix.co.uk/detail/thoren ... =beechwood

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by raphaelmabo » 12 May 2019 17:30

Well yes, Thorens pimped up the old Dual auto-turntables.
And here's their latest incarnation, with a mix of old Dual parts and new Thorens things. Tonearm, plinth and platter (taken from the TD309) but as you can see, some of the controls are clearly Dual automatics. Considering the height of the plinth, I believe the suspension is a new design.
https://www.thorens.com/en/thorens®-td-148a-2.html

Anyway, it's nice to see both Dual and Thorens gearing up their efforts in the turntable market.

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by banerjba » 13 May 2019 04:03

The new Duals look like a reissue of the ones badged "Audiophile Concept" in the 1980s such as the 503. My local dealer has Thorens branded ones as well at quite high prices. For not much more you can get one of the much nicer Thorens designs than sport much better design and engineering.

While the mighty 505-2 was the perfect entry into hifi, the 503 etc were not quite as good. In the 1980s when the 503 was current, Revolvers and Regas were a bit more money but offered a tidier sound. Or you could get a classic Thorens like a 166Mk2 or 316 again for not much more money and they were vastly better built.

Now with the likes of Pro-ject and Elipson at the bargain end of the market producing very good sounding tables with a tidy, clean presentation with the same Ortofon cartridges, not sure the Dual designs are as competitive.

Dual does offer a wider soundstage and automatic operation but the Essential 2 and Elipson Alpha tables are better audiophile designs for less money.

I am a huge fan of the old Dual designs though.

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by Minstrel SE » 13 May 2019 19:33

Im not sure where the new built 505 fits in to todays market. Its in competition with minimalist decks and the price seems too high in my opinion. Sony, Audio Technica etc are all in the budget market

When the 505 first came out it was an ideal price point. Well made at a great price it was a no brainer and clever buy for many people. Yes £100 then is significantly more now...near £300 by some calculations but the Dual seems too high a price now.

Crucially the Planar 2 was a significant increase in price point at that time

The original Dual lost out to minimalist decks and the introduction of the cd. Im not sure the vinyl revival is enough to support this Dual price point

Its a different market. Very casual buyers will be buying junk like the crosley cruiser. Other buyers will be looking at the entry level Projects and Regas.

Again I dont think the 505 will carve its own niche

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by raphaelmabo » 16 May 2019 11:49

But it seems like there's a revival going on for automatic and semi-automatic turntables. Dual started it with the CS526, and Thorens has now ditched their old TD295 and replaces it with the new TD402 DD semi-automatic. Brands such as Reloop also has semi-automatics. So it seems that there is a growing interest in user friendliness - semi-automatics with built-in pre-amp's and electronic speed control, as alternatives to the all-manual Rega, Pro-Jects... They are not cheap, but it seems to be a market for them.
As for the sound quality of Dual 505 vs a Rega, I believe it more comes down to the plinth design than semi-automatic vs all manual. Dual being a suspended design and Rega a solid MDF-board. This affects the sound in different ways.
I do note that Dual now seems to be in a process of moving on from the suspended chassi designs to solid plinths, thicker than Rega. The 526, 550 and 600.

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by lini » 17 May 2019 04:48

DSJR: Forgot to mention, that the model variants fixed spindle came later - i.e. the initial CS410/415 and CS430/435 still had the better drive with regular spindle, that turned with the platter, while the later CS415-1 and -2 as well as the 435-2 have the downgraded drive with fixed spindle.


bjba: Actually the 503-1 and expecially the 503-2 with the relocated and better decoupled motor weren't bad at all - the latter was pretty much just as good as a 505-3, which might be the main reason, why Dual introduced the 505-4 with higher quality cart/needle (ULM68E/DN168E - practically a rebadged OM(B)20) pretty soon after the introduction of the 503-2. One would ideally combine these ULM-armed models with carts/needles with high to very high compliance, though.


Greetings from Munich!

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by DSJR » 17 May 2019 09:57

Thanks for extra info. In the UK, the Thorens 'versions' of Dual decks command a huge price premium. The TD148 looks interesting as long as the sub assembly isn't 'flexible' as the older Dual-related decks were.

And yes, I do feel it's great that Dual are still making decks and surviving in one form or another.

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by lini » 17 May 2019 16:16

Minstrel SE wrote:
13 May 2019 19:33
(...) Again I dont think the 505 will carve its own niche
Also forgot to comment on that: Oh, well, Martin, according to Dualfred and Noko, the 505-4 will be discontinued anyway - iirc, due to worn-out production tools, but also due to difficulties with sourcing parts for the SM100-1 motor.

And who would really want to buy a current 505-4, anyway? Compared to the initial version it not only lost the heavier platter variant (with lead ring), the good rubber mat and the ULM68E/OM(B)20, but a few years ago also the easily swappable headshell - and in the meantime Fehrenbacher apparently even ran out of the original inner gimbal frame of the 3rd gen. ULM arm, so that they now use the different looking version from the low-profile variant of the 3rd gen. ULM arm instead. So buying a new 505-4 has become rather unattractive, as one would pay way more for quite a bit less and hence be quite dumb to not buy a used 505-2 (DeLuxe), 505-3 or early (or at least earlier) 505-4 instead.


Oh, and another thing I forgot to comment on: Regarding the CS526 being semi-automatic, well, yes it is, but in its most spartanic form, because it's auto-stop only. So it not only doesn't return the arm (which I haven't got a problem with, not only because I don't need that, but also as that only makes things more complicated...), but also doesn't even sport auto-lift, so that the arm remains on therecord after auto-stopping. Hence I'd rather be inclined to call the CS526 an auto-stop model than a semi-automatic model.


Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by mrow2 » 17 May 2019 19:58

Listening to vinyl is ever slowly becoming a rich man's game rather than a skint man's game! Of course, where there is a will (and a clever D-I-Y-er), there is a way.

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by DSJR » 17 May 2019 23:34

No need to buy new LP's when thousands are out there still fairly cheap on the used market - here at least... Rega do a great simple manual deck with their posh version of the AT91 (quite respectable sound too) for £250. It may not be an audiophool's wet dream, but it plays records very nicely and a Thakker EPO-E stylus can refine the sound a little.

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by Solist » 18 May 2019 11:17

mrow2 wrote:
17 May 2019 19:58
Listening to vinyl is ever slowly becoming a rich man's game rather than a skint man's game! Of course, where there is a will (and a clever D-I-Y-er), there is a way.
Depends, if you do the research you can get really good deals on used equipment. But the way prices went up the last 4 years is just plain stupid. Regarding new lps, I stopped buying those a while back. The only exception being if an album is new new, then I will put the extra pennies.

But I do remember once listening to a guy on yt, stating that tape recorders are the new way to go. One of the reasons being, they are a more expensive way for listening to music compared to vinyl. Stupidity is strong within some people.

Back to the Dual topic. Are not these new turntables supposed to be made in Germany? Like the whole unit, I remember reading it somewhere not so long ago. Then the price makes a bit more sense.
DSJR wrote:
11 May 2019 12:59

How much would a 721 be today?
Probably a very expensive turntable. SME reissued the Garrard 301. 12,500 pounds sterling without the tonearm. Seems reasonable... =P~

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Re: Dual definitely still making turntables

Post by DSJR » 19 May 2019 19:12

Still a bloody rumble-box, whoever makes it ;)

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