Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

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moondogtn
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Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by moondogtn » 27 Feb 2019 03:35

All, I am working to get two dual 1219 turntables back in business. One at a time of course. First time on duals. I am working slowly but wanted to take care of the motor bearing portion before I got too far. I freed up the speed control lever. I still need to disassemble and clean properly but wanted to get motor done first.
I was able to use some heavy duty snap ring pliers to remove the bell. The top end with the bushings cam off but I am left with the windings in the bottom half. I know I need to drill out the rivets holding that bottom piece in place. I don't do that with windings still in there do I? I am sorry if this seems like a dumb question but I am not sure how to get that bell free from windings.
Can someone please advise me? I can post pics if needed.
I will add questions as they arise. Thanks

Bill

Spinner45
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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by Spinner45 » 27 Feb 2019 06:00

The end shells are firmly press-fitted to the core laminations.
Extreme care must be used to remove them.

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by mrow2 » 27 Feb 2019 08:52

Drill the rivets carefully, with a bit slightly larger than the rivet holes. You can do it from the outside. Don't disturb the wires in any way. Keep the bushing parts in the exact order they are in now. Follow the motor service guide carefully. When reassembling, do each side a little at a time and allow the nuts and bolts to draw the two housings back together. Do not overtighten them as the motor may possibly bind.

moondogtn
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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by moondogtn » 27 Feb 2019 13:56

Thanks, Don. I appreciate the tips. That will help. So, there is no need to remove the bottom bell? I can simply drill rivets from outside to remove lower bearing assembly? I just want to make sure I understand that.

Spinner45, you are stating the obvious but I am not sure how to remove the lower half. It sounds like I don't need to?

Thanks, Bill

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by dualcan » 27 Feb 2019 15:12

Hi,
Sometimes, -make that often...- Murphy's Law comes into play when opening these motors. Using these pliers is the right thing to do in the first instance. With Murphy leaving the bottom bell in place, we need an extra plan to get that one safely off the armature.
Hopefully you made a mark on the side to later align the top bell with the armature, as we want to avoid installing the armature upside down (motor will run backwards...) and also to ensure that the top bell mounting bracket sees the coil wires come out of the armature on the power switch side. Don't ask how I know...
If you did not mark the top bell, do so know because you still know which side is up for the coil, and which side the wire is in relation to the upper bell's mounting studs. The lower bell does not need to be marked, as the bolt holes location will serve that purpose.
To remove the lower bell from the coil, I use one of two methods.
The brutal and quick way is to get a large (1" or 24mm)or larger- (up to coil inner diameter) long-reach socket. Less preferable is a socket with extension. This has to sit on the three rivets or further out, but at minimum, must clears the central cap's "bushing bulge":
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Hold the armature:
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and with the heaviest hammer you have/can handle, tap the socket a couple of times while holding the coil:
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DO NOT sit bell down on table while striking- pic only shows the procedure....
Using a large hammer gives a strong shock with a small strike, whereas using a lighter hammer will not create enough force but rather lead to deform the lower bell from repeated strikes.
With this sized hammer, the bell moves with the second blow and at most with a third, to come off.
If you use a cube with extension, make sure to force the extension / cube down onto the cover plate, all the while holding the coil. The extra joint between the cube and extension will mitigate the shock value to the lower bell and is also trickier to hold, hence the long reach preference.
The second option is to grab the old slotted screwdriver (which now serves as anything else but as a screwdriver...) and file or grind a "U" into the blade:
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Insert the converted tool into the side slots where the bolts go and give a not-too-gentle tap, alternating sides after each shot:
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Either way will work to remove the lower bell from the coil without endangering the coil's fragile wires.
Regards,
k

moondogtn
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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by moondogtn » 28 Feb 2019 02:55

Thanks for the advice. It worked out using a large socket. I will clean and oil according to procedure. I have a rivet gun to reassemble. Then, I will continue and hopefully be able to get her playing.

Bill

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by moondogtn » 01 Mar 2019 22:21

I got motor taken care of.
So, next I can clean up speed selector. It appears it is advisable to remove and disassemble completely?

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by Spinner45 » 01 Mar 2019 22:42

moondogtn wrote:
01 Mar 2019 22:21
I got motor taken care of.
So, next I can clean up speed selector. It appears it is advisable to remove and disassemble completely?
Yes.
Avoid springs, ball bearings popping out, stress on parts, the usual delicate surgery stuff.

moondogtn
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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by moondogtn » 02 Mar 2019 00:53

I can try once I figure out how to get this ring off of top that holds pitch control in place....


Edit: Got it! Used two screwdrivers and hoped it worked!

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by moondogtn » 02 Mar 2019 22:02

I got everything put back together and it worked great....except tonearm dropped a little fast for my taste. I decided to refresh the dampening fluid. I used Kyosho 300000. I either got overzealous applying the silicone or I messed up something else. Is it necessary to remove to thin that silicone or is there a way to partially clean or remove while it is installed?

I did clean all the grease off the guide area of the main lever. Do I need to reapply grease there for contact with the guide white?
Everything is put back together properly(I think) I looked at my unmodified table and I see one difference. I will post pics but I am dreading taking that tonearm lifter off again. Those two tiny clips are a huge pain.
Picture shows two small tabs that are sitting side by side. On the other table, it seems that the gold colored tab is on top of black one. The other table hasnt been touched that I know of....

Thanks for thoughts or help.

Bill
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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by samba » 03 Mar 2019 09:41

I'm not quite sure what you mean. What are the part numbers from the service manual?

It could be that one of the turntables is in single play mode and the other is in multi mode. In multi mode, the tonearm assembly is lifted so that the tracking angle for multiple records is adjusted.

WARNING: do not operate the multi-single lever on the machine you are showing in the picture. The rubber lifter ring (part nr 214) you are showing seems to be hardened. If you force a stuck stuck lifter mechanism, you risk breaking the dearing ring. Replacing this is a much bigger pain than the two clips you mention.
lifter-ring.jpg
Aged and cracked lifter ring that must be replaced.
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Check the rubber lifter ring on the other machine as well before trying to move it from single to multi play. I repeat: never force the multi-single lever to check, always inspect the ring first. If in doubt, just replace the ring. It will have to be replaced eventually anyway, as rubber ages over time.

Other than that, the contact area between the steuerpimpel and main lever must be rough to make good contact with the pimpel. It was originally sandblasted at the factory and may be worn. It can be roughed up with sandpaper. The surface must be roughed up in the direction perpendicular to the steuerpimpel path. A thin film of Alvania grease should be smeared on the rough surface to prolong the useful life of the pimple, as it also slides over the surface. If you have silicone oil in that area, I think it will give problems as it probably will be too slippery.

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by moondogtn » 03 Mar 2019 19:33

samba, thanks for the advice. I do know not to mess with that selector and I do have the rings on order. Thanks for the warning though. I did a bit of reading and think that both are original but nothing has been damaged(fingers crossed). My rings are like rocks so both will be getting replaced.

The 1219 service manual page 18 shows the parts in question to be the cam lift plate(183) and the Equalizing Arm(194). I looked at the untouched table and you are correct. It is in the multi selection which explains the different position of the equalizing arm. Good call and I did not think of that...it was 3 in the morning though so.....

Also, what I thought was Kyosho 300000 is actually 500000 so maybe its too thick. I will need to remove and clean this off and add the correct damping fluid as I really think that is the area causing issues with the lifting cam I will remove the main lever and check that contact area as well.

Any advice on safely removing those tiny clips would be appreciated. I did it before using tiny needle nose pliers. It worries me as those clips are so small. I do NOT want to lose them. Lol

Bill

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by Spinner45 » 03 Mar 2019 21:08

moondogtn wrote:
03 Mar 2019 19:33
samba, thanks for the advice. I do know not to mess with that selector and I do have the rings on order. Thanks for the warning though. I did a bit of reading and think that both are original but nothing has been damaged(fingers crossed). My rings are like rocks so both will be getting replaced.

The 1219 service manual page 18 shows the parts in question to be the cam lift plate(183) and the Equalizing Arm(194). I looked at the untouched table and you are correct. It is in the multi selection which explains the different position of the equalizing arm. Good call and I did not think of that...it was 3 in the morning though so.....

Also, what I thought was Kyosho 300000 is actually 500000 so maybe its too thick. I will need to remove and clean this off and add the correct damping fluid as I really think that is the area causing issues with the lifting cam I will remove the main lever and check that contact area as well.

Any advice on safely removing those tiny clips would be appreciated. I did it before using tiny needle nose pliers. It worries me as those clips are so small. I do NOT want to lose them. Lol

Bill
C clips are best removed with a tiny screwdriver, like a jewlers type, and putting a finger against the back of the "C" to keep it from flying into outer space.

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by moondogtn » 04 Mar 2019 02:09

All of the functions basically work but...it seems like the tonearm now does not lift up high enough to clear the arm rest when starting. I am wondering how difficult that is to adjust. I am still looking through the service manual. Tonearm damping seems fine.

I forgot to mention when reinstalling the protector plate(221), I adjusted the Guide Piece (219) to get it back on...I think this guides segment 181? I thought I got it back where it was.

I will keep digging. Thanks for any input and advice.

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Re: Dual 1219 Questions help Advice Tips

Post by tep392 » 04 Mar 2019 18:05

moondogtn wrote:
03 Mar 2019 19:33

Also, what I thought was Kyosho 300000 is actually 500000 so maybe its too thick. I will need to remove and clean this off and add the correct damping fluid as I really think that is the area causing issues with the lifting cam I will remove the main lever and check that contact area as well.

Bill
I used the 500k stuff on my 1219 and it's working fine. Needle drops nice and gently. You may have just used too much. I tried not to get too much in the spring area, so it is just a film between the piston and cylinder.

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