Something to think about

twice the fun
Post Reply
babadockia
member
member
Posts: 152
Joined: 12 Mar 2015 23:03
Location: Sweden

Something to think about

Post by babadockia » 22 Feb 2019 22:56

Something I stumbled upon on audiokarma:

"Still, a well-maintained Dual provides very good sound and value for money, with the added comfort of automatic functions. Getting rid of the spring mounting of the chassis and bolting the thing down to a heavy plinth does wonders to the bass response, tightening it up and getting rid of that overflowing plummy bass that the spring mount seems to introduce."
I kinda know that those suspension took away the vibrations from the motor, but nothing more.
Is there anything true in that?

Spinner45
long player
long player
Posts: 2995
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 18:21

Re: Something to think about

Post by Spinner45 » 23 Feb 2019 00:17

Dual designed their turntables by extensive research and development, and testing.
I'm quite sure that the end result was perfected before they were offered to the public.
With that said, I don't see a need to attempt "making things better" by people with lesser knowledge.

mrow2
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 3326
Joined: 25 Aug 2010 03:05
Location: San Clemente, California

Re: Something to think about

Post by mrow2 » 23 Feb 2019 02:39

I believe there is more wishful imagination associated with this notion than anything else. The Dual suspension, maintained in good condition, is probably the best way to go, just as Spinner states. But who knows, really. Look at $130,000 turntables (or more normal $30,000 turntables) --- those things are pretty solid. Big, heavy platters do have certain advantages. This can be sort of like a cartridge discussion as in, there's no end to it. Duals were engineered for a certain level of performance but for the ones with plastic frames + thin MDF panels as plinths, I can see why someone might want to upgrade the plinth in some way or another. We've discussed before, how lining the thing with plasticine (modeling clay) inside can add a lot of solidity to the plinth. There might be some sense to that. But I wouldn't remove the springs. Before you do it, be aware it has a pungent odor.

Supposedly the 10 most expensive turntables right now (one of them reminds me of the table saw I'd like to have): https://pulseradio.net/articles/2016/01 ... -the-world

AsOriginallyRecorded
senior member
senior member
Canada
Posts: 742
Joined: 26 Jun 2018 06:05

Re: Something to think about

Post by AsOriginallyRecorded » 23 Feb 2019 04:18

I tend to be somewhat of a purist myself, and have little interest in the pursuit of some form of idealized perfect moment with my music. I do want it to be clean, fluid, uncompromised by sub-standard equipment, but I want it to be representative of the original recording. Pursue the elusive perfect note if you wish, but don't bore me with the method. Similarly, any piece of equipment, at least at point of introduction to the marketplace, is a well thought out, designed, and hopefully implemented item, as intended by the manufacturer. There are any number of well reasoned and occasionally enlightened modifications that may be made, but generally, it is pure vanity to believe that those same engineers overlooked something obvious that a hobbyist somehow can envision to radically change the function or effectiveness of the component. Time and technology can reveal shortcomings of course, but at the time of release to the public, the item was likely nearly as good a product as materials, technology and cost would allow. After that point, and for most significant modifications, the initial character of the component is forever changed, and honestly, can not be considered to be the original any longer. Radical modifications will only further distance the item in question from the original. Kind of an apples and oranges thing in my opinion. Valid changes possibly, but no longer the same entity, ergo, something essentially different from a purist viewpoint. Good, better, best.....something different? If you like the changes you make to a personal piece of equipment, fine, no harm, no foul, but it can no longer be considered as the original type, can it? At what point does the modification become the essence of the component? Results aside, it can be a compromising process. There is seldom a perfect moment in anything, even less so when changes are applied. The moment can be very fleeting. Enjoy the equipment, and pursue the moment designed into it, but try to learn to recognize it for what it is, not what it might be. Carpe diem! :)

Spinner45
long player
long player
Posts: 2995
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 18:21

Re: Something to think about

Post by Spinner45 » 23 Feb 2019 06:42

mrow2 wrote:
23 Feb 2019 02:39
Supposedly the 10 most expensive turntables right now (one of them reminds me of the table saw I'd like to have): https://pulseradio.net/articles/2016/01 ... -the-world
Those idiotic, bloated machines are designed for the superfical rich crowd.
Other than looking like some oddball work of art, they do the same thing as any turntable does....
Spins a record.

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 318
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Something to think about

Post by T68 » 23 Feb 2019 09:47

I added about 6-7 pounds of modelling clay to the base of my Dual 1225 with good result. That little plasticy thing that used to be a bit rattling an flimsy to me now feels solid as a brick.
Thinking about giving the 601 the same treatment. And if it doesn't work, at least it's a cheap mistake that is easy to revert. And hey, then you have some material to practice your artistic talents :-)

Here's a pic of the 1225 tray filled with clay:
IMG_20181005_173428.jpg
(100.15 KiB) Downloaded 125 times

Tinkaroo
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Canada
Posts: 7262
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 21:00
Location: Pixie Hollow by The Bay

Re: Something to think about

Post by Tinkaroo » 23 Feb 2019 10:21

I fail to see how having springs results in the bass issues the person is alluding too.

As far as I know the springs help to reduce the problems caused by heavy footfall, so if you eliminated them then you are much more subject to mistracking because of it.

There really seems to be too much emphasis on overemphasized bass rather than a balanced sound these days. You have some brands of headphones that only do that, and you have people modifying headphones to emphasize the bass more. Why not choose a cartridge that does what they want and play with the tracking force within the acceptable range to get what they want? They can also play with the tone controls of their amp and choose speakers which give them the kind of sound they prefer.

I've made one change to my 1229Q and that was to use the 2X anti resonance counterweight as used on the 721. That's something that is simple and easy to change back, plus I think it's a better designed counterweight but was a lot more expensive to implement. I've also changed a couple of plinths on my mid to late 70s Duals to something better looking and because I like real wood, not for any imagined performance enhancement.

Solist
senior member
senior member
Slovenia
Posts: 598
Joined: 08 May 2017 18:49
Location: Ljubljana

Re: Something to think about

Post by Solist » 23 Feb 2019 10:53

The hard mounting is a common idea for idler drive turntables. Idlers tend to have stronger motors to spin the heavy platter, and stronger motors tend to produce more vibrations that can be transmitted to the tonearm. But the dual has a substantially better motor compared to other idlers so I doubt how much improvement will there be.

One of the reasons dual did not went with hard coupling is that then you need a massive plinth to deal with vibrations from the motor and the speakers. And a massive plinth costs a lot to produce.

The suspended chassis is also a lot more forgiving when it comes to placing the turntable in a room, with a hard coupled turntable you need to make sure it does not pick any vibrations from the speakers.

Try knocking on the plinth of a suspended chassis while playing, you will hear nothing. So the springs are doing exactly what they were meant to do.

Tinkaroo
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Canada
Posts: 7262
Joined: 04 Feb 2011 21:00
Location: Pixie Hollow by The Bay

Re: Something to think about

Post by Tinkaroo » 23 Feb 2019 11:40

On the 1229 as an example you have a good quality motor that shouldn't create too much vibration if serviced and in good shape plus it has rubber motor mounts to help absorb any vibration.

You also have a rubber idler wheel which also reduces any transmission of vibration.

The platter is a massive hunk of well balanced metal, so there is a great deal of inertia in this design plus the bearings it rides on are good too.

I don't see any vibration issues on the 1229.

babadockia
member
member
Posts: 152
Joined: 12 Mar 2015 23:03
Location: Sweden

Re: Something to think about

Post by babadockia » 23 Feb 2019 22:26

Thank you all. As always was a pleasure and an honor to read you, guys

DSJR
long player
long player
Wales
Posts: 2791
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:29
Location: Suffolk

Re: Something to think about

Post by DSJR » 24 Feb 2019 20:14

Here we go again. Spinner, with respect, you're stuck in the 70's here. A turntable has to do FAR more than *just* spin quietly at 33, 45 or whatever. Modern high performance oil-rig decks get surprisingly close to digital, the vinyl system losses and considerable added distortion in vinyl playback minimised to a surprising degree and into large monitor grade speakers, the results are impressive, although audiophools investing tens of thousands of dollars/pounds into such confections don't usually ever consider how good digital is these days when compared to the original recording and given a dedicated mastering engineer with lightness of touch... Streaming is 'educating' a whole new generation of well off audio people though.

Dual's plinths are crap really and the deck plates do 'boing' ever so slightly if tapped while the records are playing BUT, if the deck is placed on a solid surface and the plinth is sharply rapped with one's knuckles, usually next to nothing gets through to the stylus! No need to mass load the plastic base, just get a wide diameter thick felt self adhesive 'foot', stick it on the bottom centre of the plastic under-tray and lo and behold, as well as having a fifth foot, the base is lightly loaded to the support surface and has no vibration sensitivity...

I don't mean to be flippant here. Duals don't need to be clamped down like a bloody Garrard 401 does (many Duals are quieter generally for one thing), but hey-ho, audiophiles often live in a land of subjectivism with absolute no understanding of mechanics, so follow certain trends like sheep do - sorry... been there, done that and hopefully the fifty years or so around this industry (man and boy) have helped a bit - rolleyes...

Spinner45
long player
long player
Posts: 2995
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 18:21

Re: Something to think about

Post by Spinner45 » 24 Feb 2019 22:46

DSJR wrote:
24 Feb 2019 20:14
Here we go again. Spinner, with respect, you're stuck in the 70's here. A turntable has to do FAR more than *just* spin quietly at 33, 45 or whatever. Modern high performance oil-rig decks get surprisingly close to digital, the vinyl system losses and considerable added distortion in vinyl playback minimised to a surprising degree and into large monitor grade speakers, the results are impressive, although audiophools investing tens of thousands of dollars/pounds into such confections don't usually ever consider how good digital is these days when compared to the original recording and given a dedicated mastering engineer with lightness of touch... Streaming is 'educating' a whole new generation of well off audio people though.

Dual's plinths are crap really and the deck plates do 'boing' ever so slightly if tapped while the records are playing BUT, if the deck is placed on a solid surface and the plinth is sharply rapped with one's knuckles, usually next to nothing gets through to the stylus! No need to mass load the plastic base, just get a wide diameter thick felt self adhesive 'foot', stick it on the bottom centre of the plastic under-tray and lo and behold, as well as having a fifth foot, the base is lightly loaded to the support surface and has no vibration sensitivity...

I don't mean to be flippant here. Duals don't need to be clamped down like a bloody Garrard 401 does (many Duals are quieter generally for one thing), but hey-ho, audiophiles often live in a land of subjectivism with absolute no understanding of mechanics, so follow certain trends like sheep do - sorry... been there, done that and hopefully the fifty years or so around this industry (man and boy) have helped a bit - rolleyes...
To reply, no, I'm not "stuck in the 70's", I'm quite in tune with what's out there, be it modern or vintage.
I'm also a person with his two feet firmly planted on planet Earth - AKA a "realist" of sorts.
Decades ago, when I was younger, (20's to 30ish) I "fell for" some of the hype and advertising about audio equipment, both consumer level, and professional, and indeed, some of it is good advice, "truth in advertising" one might say.

But as I got older, and naturally more experienced, and exposed to a plethora of equipment, I "saw the light" and was amazed at how much BS is touted out there.
This was through my jobs, and was something most of you on here didn't or won't have the pleasure of entertaining.
I saw and still see, how manufacturing,, trends, design, reliability and performance, along with marketing and pricing changed.
And to be honest, quite a bit of it isn't a pretty sight.
When you actually dig your hands into literally thousands of products, see how they are made, and able to do educated comparisons, you then know things that the "common man" never sees, or has a clue about.

I read threads on here, other sites, and have to shake my head sometimes, because I see a lot of people "swayed" or "convinced" of things that are simply not true.
At times, I've gotten into heated debates when I've brought up discrepencies or ill-facts discussed.
I'm not one to prone to fight and argue with someone who thinks they "know better" than me, alas it has happened on occasion.
But when you have had the education, the experience, and understand the scientific properties behind things, as opposed to "reading it on the internet", you naturally have to question the individual, and make them understand that their beliefs are not sound.

And as I stated about those "works of art" monster turntables that mrow2 posted, they're just "bling", eye candy, and attractive/impressive to people, yet the bottom line is they do exactly the same thing as my "pauper level" turntables do.
Without the same price tag.

I've always loved music of many genres, and of course like hearing it clearly, accurately, authentically as possible, with good, solid, reliable, equipment.
But I don't need or have the desire to "show off" anything.
That is for people with deficiencies not based on the enjoyment of music.

Solist
senior member
senior member
Slovenia
Posts: 598
Joined: 08 May 2017 18:49
Location: Ljubljana

Re: Something to think about

Post by Solist » 24 Feb 2019 23:31

babadockia wrote:
23 Feb 2019 22:26
Thank you all. As always was a pleasure and an honor to read you, guys
With all said, if you are looking in ways to improve the turntable, go for it. There are people on this forum like me, that will prefer keeping the equipment in original shape and just buy records. Boomy bass? Well I can live with that, or just try and correct it with speaker placement. Then there are others that will want to modify the living hell (or heaven?) to get the best out of their equipment.

If you want to try hard couple it and hear what happens then go for it. Dual had to cut costs somewhere and most of the plinths made in germany were poorly made. Fully automatic turntables cost a lot more money to make, and there is not a lot of money for the manufacturer left at the end of the day. Most of the Duals in the USA had better plinths since there were other manufacturers producing them. But you can still make a better plinth if you want to.

You can either try and make a heavy plinth and still use the original springs, semi couple it (as mentioned above - would like to hear more about that) or hard couple it. If you decide to hard couple it, you better make a heavy plinth. You could also try and support the spindle to make contact with the heavy plinth. You can also buy sorbothane feet and isolate the turntable even more from speaker vibrations. Or if you have a lathe you can try and make a new thrust bearing, so it runs on a single ball instead of 5. And while doing all this you might degrade the sound, even if in theory it should sound better.

Use your ears. I have heard someone comment that a stacked platter Lenco sounded better compared to the original, even if a cheaper cartridge was used. Turned out he forgot to adjust the arm height. Audio forums can become unusual sometimes.

I think that a nice plinth with its original springs, and a thicker mat should be enough. But that is just my opinion.


There are different kinds of people on this forum, and sometimes opinions will get exchanged.

Post Reply