Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

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keoki82
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Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by keoki82 » 18 Feb 2019 20:35

I'm curious if there are any significant differences in sonic performance between these two models. I recently inherited a 1225. My only previous experience with Dual was a CS-1258 that my parents bought in the late 1980s to replace a console Garrard. I remember using it often as a kid, but the look and feel of it seemed a little cheap. The silver paint on the chassis began to scratch under the start/stop switch and the paint was even bubbling and peeling off in places. I prefer the classic 70s look and feel of the 1225. I remember the belt drive system of the 1258 would produce a slight low-pitched "growl" during the automatic cycle but I thought that was kind of charming.

Both tables are fully automatic operation. The only differences I can find are the 1225 idler wheel vs 1258 belt drive, and the 1225 is without a strobe platter. It also seems like the 1258 wants/needs to have a ULM cartridge to be optimal. Aside from tone arm construction and belt drive, are there any other significant differences between these two models?

My head and heart are both telling me that the 1225 is sounding better than my memory of the 1258, but it's been many years since I parted with the 1258, so who knows...

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by dualcan » 18 Feb 2019 21:21

Hi
A belt drive is always quieter than an idler wheel drive. The 1258 specs out-do the 1225 by a large margin.
The 1258 does need an adapter should you want to use a 1/2" mounting cart.
BTW, any turntable that "sounds", should be chucked! The job of a turntable is exactly that -turn- and support/transport the cart, with no sound/noise or as quiet as possible . Any influence/sound that is added to the cart (the actual and only sound reproducer...) by the tt, is biasing that performance.
Regards,
k

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by DSJR » 18 Feb 2019 21:40

Idler drives do have a certain 'something' to the reproduced sound and to hell if they actually measure worse... I rate highly the previous sample of 1214 I have (4 pole motor and retro-fitted 1216 platter). The arm can be abruptly lowered if the cue lever isn't used before starting the cycle (don't think this applies to the 1225) but 'musically' it's a gem and it's quiet too through the speakers, this one...

If the deck is working right, you shouldn't have a limitation on cartridge choice (there are sensible limits of course), so I'd enjoy the subjective qualities it has and listen to lots of music it's helping to extract from them record grooves :D


Klaus, I can't answer your post above on here, but despite idler noises, the musical qualities are beyond doubt, hence the audiophile 'thing' about old broadcast Garrards, Lenco's and so on. Many rubber-belt drives can be wishy-washy on absolute pitch (difficult if you're not sensitive to this, but some customers were and for me, it took CD and it's absolute stability, to hear it).

I'm a Linn trained? person of over forty years standing - where 'musical sound quality differences in turntables' is concerned, despite leaving the LP12 behind thirty years ago personally for something more master-tape like (with back-breaking platter weighing 74lbs i remember). Those days have long gone and my 701 does just fine, but it's NOT as expansive as a true Top End modern turntable system...

So much to say and no time or further inclination to follow through. I've been comparing turntables for over forty years and could clearly hear what two different decks with identical arms and cartridges could do. CD's maturity has all but rendered this null and void in all but the very best oil-rig type decks out there (and almost, the silly money £25k Linn effort), but there's millions of good condition LP's out there which can sound great - and the classic Duals we discuss here are endearing and delightful platforms on which to play them!

So there!!

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by keoki82 » 18 Feb 2019 22:30

Thanks for the responses so far. On paper, the 1258 definitely outperforms the 1225 specs. But there's some kind of charm to playing records with an idler drive. When I was a kid, my family turntables were all Garrards and it was on those tables (in wooden consoles) that I found my life-long love for records. When the repair shop hammered that 1258 into the console as a replacement, it just didn't feel the same. Maybe it was my perception of the aesthetic differences between the look and feel of a classic Garrard versus an 80's-era Dual.

How is it that Dual could use a belt drive system for an automatic changer? From what I've read, it seems like the added weight of two or three extra records is too heavy for a belt drive to be effective.

As mentioned, I parted with the 1258 years ago so I can't make a direct comparison between the two. But I'll say this much - the 1225 with a QLM 36 MK III cartridge gets 80% of the way to the Rega P3-2000 with Groovetracer upgrades and an Ortofon Rondo Red. I've spent a lot of money to get my Rega to that level and I paid nothing for this Dual. It's clear that Duals are really great and reliable machines from factory spec.

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by tep392 » 19 Feb 2019 03:52

I put the QLM36 on my 1219 and I'm loving the sound. I've lost the upgrade bug and just want to listen to music.

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by keoki82 » 19 Feb 2019 04:36

tep392 wrote:
19 Feb 2019 03:52
I put the QLM36 on my 1219 and I'm loving the sound. I've lost the upgrade bug and just want to listen to music.
This cartridge has outstanding value. It was already fitted to the 1225 when the turntable was gifted to me. Its performance impressed me so much I checked online and couldn't believe how low the MSRP is for its sound. Pleasantly surprised!

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by DSJR » 19 Feb 2019 10:03

ADC's varied a fair bit sadly, all in the sa,me model too. You'd love a good one and dislike a less than stable example, but a nicely working one can be neutral in balance and quite sweet toned with it. A modern AT520 is probably where the 36 would lay today (the 500 series has better body internals and a stylus upgrade option over the 95E series). My 701 sounds fine with the ZLM in it (new ADC stylus I found) and sometimes, a descended Sonus Blue comes out to play, but the stylus is no longer available and these were even more variable I remember...

keoki82
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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by keoki82 » 19 Feb 2019 17:34

Interesting; thanks for the info. I knew nothing about ADC products until I saw this cartridge and looked them up online. I had never even heard of the company before.

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by mrow2 » 19 Feb 2019 19:37

Yes, these are actually very nice cartridges (I have a few as well). Heavy turntables seem to have a "soundstage presence" about them, those with the heavy platters. Not my concept, but I've had others phone me up and exclaim how impressed they were with their heavy Dual idler. Technically, many of the belt drives are probably quieter, just as Klaus says. But maybe there's something to the mystique. All of that aside, a good working 701 or 721 ain't bad. This conversation can go on forever, no shortage of thoughts in the forums!! What I don't like about the 1258 is the ULM and headshell hassle but if there are good fixes for it then it would be nice.

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by keoki82 » 19 Feb 2019 20:52

Yeah, there's something about an idler, even if the emotion is just brought on by the nostalgia of using one to play records. Since I've been so impressed with the QLM 36, it's probably just the cartridge difference I'm hearing. The 1258 had the TKS 45E installed, and maybe this QLM beats it.

Anyone know why the 1258 "groans" during its automatic cycle? I always got a kick out of that. I enjoyed using that table for many years as a kid, even though I'm liking the 1225 now.

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Re: Dual 1225 vs CS-1258

Post by DSJR » 20 Feb 2019 12:19

Probably lack of grease on the main lever's 'paddle?' Today though, it's anybody's guess.

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