Dual 604

twice the fun
2002afan
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Re: Dual 604

Post by 2002afan » 21 Feb 2019 01:57

Update. The Dual was finally delivered yesterday after the Holiday. :D Met the Post-lady of German heritage (I took this as a good sign :^o ) at the mailbox. Open the box , A Sarran wrapped mummy, shipping screws up. Counter weight still mounted but secured by more mummy. More on the counterweight later. Overall appearance 7/w-cover, 9.5 with clean-up , no cover. :shock: :mrgreen: Down to the bat-cave. Wipe it down. Disconnect my back up (soon to be for sale) Denon DP-15F that I have attached to an old ONKYO TX-820 receiver and some EPOS ELS3. Connect up the Dual. Nice replacement RCA plugs, no connecter on the ground wire (screwed it onto chassis). Had a nice replacement head-shell with a QLM 32III (NOS stylus) ready to go. It came with an old wore out headshell, wires exposed. The cartridge appears to be an old Stanton. Gold body, white stylus (huge conical) with a light blue rectangle on the front.

Read a little of the owner's manual (good thing I had one from V/E) Player came with an original service manual, not the owner, as stated. :o [-X :) I took this as a bad sign. :oops: I felt a little worse, when I noticed the counter balance dangling like a bobber in the back. "My Denons and Technic don't ever look like that". :roll: I kindly removed it and figure there must be some way to tighten this thing up. :idea: Before you know it, I had little parts in my hands including a little sponge donut. I had just opened up a can of worms, the dual 2X anti-resonator. :x #-o Time for Google. LUCKILY, It takes me to a V/E Dual Forum discussion, Dual 621 Weight Issue (Sept 2014). Quite in depth as usual. :P Same usual suspects, Don, Lini, Tinkaroo and dualcan. =D> I found another picture on Google that showed the glue points to reattach the donut to the spring for reassembly of the counter balance. Where is my clear Gorilla Glue. Ten minutes later, I have this German springy, thingy glued back together and setting up for the night.

This morning, A nice little wintry reminder waited for me as I awoke. After breakfast and a cup of the Mrs. "Special Blend", I proceed to shovel 3.5 inches of snow from the driveway and along the sidewalk to keep the pedestrians and man's best friend from loitering. :lol: No offense to dog lovers. :wink: No time for one myself, less time for vinyl. :P
After a final snow clearing, Dual time. 8) Reassemble the Counter balance, Hey, it is a little tighter. [-o< New one on order from Dual Fred. He delivers fast. Today, received an order from last week. =D> Zero out arm. Slid counter balance back and forth to rough balance. Tighten it up, set tracking force and anti-skate. Install head-shell and remove stylus cover. Arm lift works. :P I place stylus over album, lower arm. [-o< No sound. :cry: Don't sweat Will. :^o :idea: I attach a spade connector to TT ground wire. Clean tone arm electrical spades where head-shell connects with a little shot of DeoxIT. Dual 604, take two. Some sound, but only on one channel, hum. :( #-o
Drop headshell, recheck connections and firmly push in head-shell and lock in place.

Dual 604, take three. [-o< George Benson\Breezin, spinning on the platter. 8)
What is that glorious sound. =P~ The Denon never sounded like this coming thru the ONKYO. The Technic SL-1300 either, for that matter. This is one fantastic sounding turntable. At the end of the record, the arm lifts up and returns to it's support. :D A precision piece. Tinkaroo, you know. :P Guess I'm going to have drag it upstairs :( and hook it up to the OLD LUXMAN. Thanks to the DUAL folks for all your help, answers, enthusiasm, parts, superb manuals and grease. :wink: :oops: =D>
I have seen the light. [-o< =P~ :^o =D> :mrgreen:

Dual 604, Take ………. :wink:

T68
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Re: Dual 604

Post by T68 » 21 Feb 2019 07:01

Nice write-up WillO! Good to see you got her singing again. Good job! Kind of fun tinkering with these old things, isn't it :-)?

Note: got a Dual AND two dogs.
They're good company in the listening couch while spinning som nice vinyl on the old 601 :-)

Tinkaroo
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Re: Dual 604

Post by Tinkaroo » 21 Feb 2019 09:37

I'm glad your 604 worked out well for you in the end! =D>

Shipping is always risky especially if someone is inexperienced and doesn't take precautions.
-the platter can come loose during shipping, so that should be removed and packed separately.
-the chassis needs to be locked down.
-the counterweight and headshell/cartridge should be removed and packed separately.
-great care needs to be taken to ensure no damage to the tone arm, and it should be locked and tie wrapped to the arm rest.

I'm glad you are enjoying your 604. It is one of the unsung heroes of the Dual lineup, a simpler design but precision built and capable.

samba
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Re: Dual 604

Post by samba » 21 Feb 2019 10:02

Great to know about another Dual being taken good care of. Enjoy!
Last edited by samba on 21 Feb 2019 10:11, edited 1 time in total.

DSJR
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Re: Dual 604

Post by DSJR » 21 Feb 2019 10:08

Stanton's a 500 model, which is a softie today tracking at 3g or so for best high frequency performance.

The SL1300 can be a feedback machine as with all models of this particular Technics generation (1300/1400/1500/150 and especially the SL1200/120mk1). Remove the lid when playing, site on a rigid surface away from the speakers, change the headshell to a Sumiko or similar flat-plate style (even the modern Technics one is good) and maybe add a cork mat to the supplied one to get the arm as level as possible. Used this way, the sonics improve dramatically in my experience, making the playback quality better (Technics licked the wow, flutter and bearing noise issues well before)... I'm defending this model because it's really rather good, but needs some work along the lines we discovered since, to get the best from it.

The 604 still needs careful siting and use of the lid (eventually), but the suspension is very effective at minimising these things. With a properly working mechanism, the arm can be used with far better cartridges than you have. Sadly, what used to be cheap in my book is now a hundred quid or more (for £100 read $130 dollars) and as many Duals of this era came to the Uk with an AT derived 242e cartridge, I'd suggest either an AT VM95EN, Goldring E3 or AT520 as more the 604's minimum level...

2002afan
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Re: Dual 604

Post by 2002afan » 21 Feb 2019 16:09

Thanks to all.
T68, I do like dogs and 601s. =P~ :lol: Not too much the dogwalkers. :roll:
Tinkaroo, I definitely was concerned about it's safe delivery. I once purchased a nice Technics p-mount table and the plinth (plastic) cracked (during shipment) because the platter was left on and not secured. :oops:
I Love the simplicity of the 604. Well built and like you stated very capable of getting the job done. :mrgreen:
Samba, A machine to be cherished. :D The previous owner kept it preserved.
DSJR, Yes it is a Stanton 500 model. It even has an original stylus. The one with a read tip, I've read. I really have no qualms with my 1300. Gifted to me from the original owner. I run quite a variety of cartridges on it. I use a cork mat. I'm trying a felt mat that came on the Dual right now. I like the sound of Denon the best(all MC). On the 604, the ADC was just laying around. I'm going to give an old ORTOFON M20FL Super a spin when I receive the replacement stylus. I have a VM540ML that I can try on the DUAL. I need to get a few more head-shells. The design prohibits too many cartridge swaps. :(
Cheers,
WillO

2002afan
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Re: Dual 604

Post by 2002afan » 21 Feb 2019 16:11

2002afan wrote:
21 Feb 2019 16:09
Thanks to all.
T68, I do like dogs and 601s. =P~ :lol: Not too much the dogwalkers. :roll:
Tinkaroo, I definitely was concerned about it's safe delivery. I once purchased a nice Technics p-mount table and the plinth (plastic) cracked (during shipment) because the platter was left on and not secured. :oops:
I Love the simplicity of the 604. Well built and like you stated very capable of getting the job done. :mrgreen:
Samba, A machine to be cherished. :D The previous owner kept it preserved.
DSJR, Yes it is a Stanton 500 model. It even has an original stylus. The one with a read tip, I've read. I really have no qualms with my 1300. Gifted to me from the original owner. I run quite a variety of cartridges on it. I use a cork mat. I'm trying a felt mat that came on the Dual right now. I like the sound of Denon the best(all MC). On the 604, the ADC was just laying around. I'm going to give an old ORTOFON M20FL Super a spin when I receive the replacement stylus. I have a VM540ML that I can try on the DUAL. I need to get a few more head-shells. The design prohibits too many cartridge swaps. :(
Cheers,
WillO
"Red" tip. #-o

DSJR
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Re: Dual 604

Post by DSJR » 21 Feb 2019 17:12

I have an M20FL Super with new Ortofon stylus. Just a touch 'thumpy' in the 601 and 701 (possibly slightly 'better' in the 601 if truth be told) but no idea what a third party stylus would do in comparison with the excellent diamond fitted to an original sample - loads better than the soggy VMS30 which kind-of superceded it until the VMS range was retired.

Very interested to hear what you think of the AT540 and it should track just fine at 1.8g to taste (it may well 'sound' best at 2g as recommended though).

Audiophool alert -

Mats is personal in a way (Klaus look away now!). I always leave the Dual mat in place if its stuck down, as this best damps platter ringing. For the 601 and 701, I place a 3mm or so disc spacer around the spindle (the spacer that comes with CD-R packs - pictured somewhere in my gallery I think) and then add the mat, a 1.5mm cork for the 601 (I hate thumpy felt mats) and a Notts Analogue Spacemat on the 701. My experience is to support the record centre as best as possible although i can't be arsed with weights and clamps - bloody faff - and for me, what I do works best and I *imagine* I hear a tiny improvement :roll: I'd suggest later Duals with lower mass platters may well 'sound' better with the heavy rubber mats they came with later on, as these will add a little more flywheel effect as well as offering better record support than the concentric ribs Dual used to favour (the 604 may be from the era with 'pads' equally spaced around the outer part of the platter and although this may be great styling, the record centre is even more potentially exposed - just a hunch, as I haven't used one for forty years or so).

2002afan
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Re: Dual 604

Post by 2002afan » 21 Feb 2019 19:39

I got the M20 cartridge free from my brother-n-law. :P I figured it would work well with the Dual. If I like the sound, I will try a original M20E super/elliptical or LP Gear vivid line replacement for the FL. THAKKER sales the original M20FL stylus for 219.00E. :cry: I got the generic from a guy in the Netherlands. On my research of the M20FL, I came across a forum where a gentlemen said that it was very good sounding replacement stylus. For 30.00 bucks shipped, I figured that I would give it an audition. I have no previous history with ORTOFON. [-o< I have heard a 2M red. :roll:
I will let you know when I try out the AT540. I track at 2.0 on the 1300. The felt mat is of pretty decent quality. :shock: I think the DUAL sounds better without it. The harmonics in general are on a different level. :D
Cheers,
WillO

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Re: Dual 604

Post by DSJR » 22 Feb 2019 11:23

The DUAL M20E may be similar in performance to the M20E Super, but the styli aren't compatible as Ortofon modified the stylus keyways... I got my 20FL original stylus from Thakker a few years ago and it was well under £100!

2M Red is a rough and scrappy old thing, very like the previous 510mk2 and OM10. The 2M Bronze is M20 FL Super level and arguably better.

2002afan
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Re: Dual 604

Post by 2002afan » 22 Feb 2019 14:11

DSJR wrote:
22 Feb 2019 11:23
The DUAL M20E may be similar in performance to the M20E Super, but the styli aren't compatible as Ortofon modified the stylus keyways... I got my 20FL original stylus from Thakker a few years ago and it was well under £100!

2M Red is a rough and scrappy old thing, very like the previous 510mk2 and OM10. The 2M Bronze is M20 FL Super level and arguably better.
The M20FL Super seems like a real nice cart. :D Turntable Needles show a wait list price of 178.00 for the original stylus. :x THAKKER went WAY UP. :shock: LP Gear sells a JICO M20FL and Vivid Line Replacement each less than 100.00. I'm pretty sure the stylus from the Netherlands is a JICO M20fl. [-o<
Thanks for the heads up about non-compatibility with the M20E.
Cheers,
WillO

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Re: Dual 604

Post by 2002afan » 02 Mar 2019 03:05

I thought I would give an update on the different cartridges that I am currently using. The 604 is also now connected to my Luxman system. :)
Denon DL- 110 - 4.7 grams
Ortofon M20FL super/M20E super- a M20FL super body with a SWISS (I do not believe it is a Pfanstiel) generic D20E super stylus W/Ortofon cap 210 installed - 5.1 grams (DSJR, the D20E did fit [-o< )
Audio-technica VM540ML -6.4 grams.
Tracking Ability: All three carts have proved to be great trackers with the 604. =D> No clear winner TO ME.
Sound stage and bass/mids/highs: The Denon being a MC cart has a slight edge :^o over the ..... the Ortofon M20E super :shock: with the AT coming in a close third. I believe all of these carts work well with the 604 and probably other Dual models and that they all sound fantastic. :D
In addition, It is a joy to see a TT of such vintage still work (all functions work as intended) and sound so lovely after 40 plus years. I know there are better turntables out there just like all other audio equipment, but this one is a keeper. :mrgreen: Now if I can only get the postman, to help me sneak a 510 into the house. :oops: #-o [-X :lol:
I now see why some (a lot of) people have more than one. :wink:
Cheers,
WillO

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Re: Dual 604

Post by DSJR » 02 Mar 2019 12:33

You like BASS!! The AT540 is more modern and high frequency biased, as many Jap cartridges seem to be these days. Mind you, I loved its ancestor AT20SLa in the 701, although this one is perhaps better descended in the AT750 and metal mounted siblings. Hell, one chap here (Legrace) uses his 721 (or has done) with the slightly, wondefully-wild Rega Apheta and the 604 arm isn't *that* much different, counterweight and adjustable VTA aside. I believe he's now using a Dynavector 17D3 and this one is a seriously fussy cartridge!

I always found the DL110 rather bland, but it used to be dirt cheap back in the day and maybe that had something to do with it. If it suits you better, then enjoy it with a VERY smug grin :D To hell with objectivism, we used to run the 110 into an MC input to get more 'punch' and sometimes it worked - cough - no idea on the distortion though ;)

2002afan
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Re: Dual 604

Post by 2002afan » 02 Mar 2019 13:11

DSJR wrote:
02 Mar 2019 12:33
You like BASS!! The AT540 is more modern and high frequency biased, as many Jap cartridges seem to be these days. Mind you, I loved its ancestor AT20SLa in the 701, although this one is perhaps better descended in the AT750 and metal mounted siblings. Hell, one chap here (Legrace) uses his 721 (or has done) with the slightly, wondefully-wild Rega Apheta and the 604 arm isn't *that* much different, counterweight and adjustable VTA aside. I believe he's now using a Dynavector 17D3 and this one is a seriously fussy cartridge!

I always found the DL110 rather bland, but it used to be dirt cheap back in the day and maybe that had something to do with it. If it suits you better, then enjoy it with a VERY smug grin :D To hell with objectivism, we used to run the 110 into an MC input to get more 'punch' and sometimes it worked - cough - no idea on the distortion though ;)
DSJR, Not too much of a bass man. :oops: I really like Denon carts. Too bad, that all the ones I have are MC carts. I have a 304 that needs re-tipped. The cantilever was bent and I tried to straighten it but ended up putting a dent in it. :cry: Boron pipe is real sensitive. :( I could definitely hear (thru the distortion) the potential in it though. =P~ I run the DL-110 on MC with my ONKYO I/E, too muted on the mm setting. Sounds great on the DENON DP-15F with the light arm. I think the AUDES BLUES help though. :P On the LUXMAN, it makes no difference. The ORTOFON really surprised me. :shock: With the original nude diamond FL stylus, it has to be a real giant killer. :D
Cheers,
WillO