Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

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ssmikis
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Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by ssmikis » 17 Jan 2019 16:53

Hello,
I own dual 1218 with shure M91 MGD Head. Needle is cheap ( if not the cheapest) from ebay....
When i set up tonearm weight by manufacturers recommendation (0.75 - 1.5g) i still get sibilance but strange enough when i put more then 2.5g sibilance effect starts to get less noticeable but cant rid of completely.
Do sibilance is caused by badly produced needle or my head is going south?
thanks.

dualcan
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by dualcan » 17 Jan 2019 17:56

Hi
Simply check your tonearm for bearing friction to see if it performs well:
Here is the procedure to check both planes:

Vertical test:
1. Set arm for zero tracking force and zero antiskate force.
2. Balance arm perfectly (perhaps without stylus for safety) .Here is the procedure to check both planes:

Vertical test:
1. Set arm for zero tracking force and zero antiskate force.
2. Balance arm perfectly (perhaps without stylus for safety) .
3. * Place arm between platter and rest post, so it can descent. *
4. Drop a stamp on the head (over cartridge).
Arm must descent all the way for the 1200 series, most of the way for 1000 series with tk 12 headshells and at least lower somewhat for 1009, the lower, the better obviously...
If arm moves without hesitation then vertical bearings are ok.
*Note: for the 1219/1229/1229Q, there is a rubber bridge mounted left of and into the rest post, pivoting on a chrome shaft. This rubber bridge can be shifted/removed to enable a proper vertical test.

Horizontal test:
1. Balance arm as before (no stylus-no stamp...)
2. Apply 0.5 anti-skate on any side of the Anti Skate dial under the tone arm.
3. Bring arm towards center of record.
4. Let arm go.Here is the procedure to check both planes:

Vertical test:
1. Set arm for zero tracking force and zero antiskate force.
2. Balance arm perfectly (perhaps without stylus for safety) .
3. * Place arm between platter and rest post, so it can descent. *
4. Drop a stamp on the head (over cartridge).
Arm must descent all the way for the 1200 series, most of the way for 1000 series with tk 12 headshells and at least lower somewhat for 1009, the lower, the better obviously...
If arm moves without hesitation then vertical bearings are ok.
*Note: for the 1219/1229/1229Q, there is a rubber bridge mounted left of and into the rest post, pivoting on a chrome shaft. This rubber bridge can be shifted/removed to enable a proper vertical test.

Horizontal test:
1. Balance arm as before (no stylus-no stamp...)
2. Apply 0.5 anti-skate on any side of the Anti Skate dial under the tone arm.
3. Bring arm towards center of record.
4. Let arm go.
Arm must return all the way back to rest post without hesitation.
If arm moves without hesitation, then horizontal bearings are ok.
That's it for the test.
Arm must return all the way back to rest post without hesitation.
If arm moves without hesitation, then horizontal bearings are ok.
That's it for the test.
3. * Place arm between platter and rest post, so it can descent. *
4. Drop a stamp on the head (over cartridge).
Arm must descent all the way for the 1200 series, most of the way for 1000 series with tk 12 headshells and at least lower somewhat for 1009, the lower, the better obviously...
If arm moves without hesitation then vertical bearings are ok.
*Note: for the 1219/1229/1229Q, there is a rubber bridge mounted left of and into the rest post, pivoting on a chrome shaft. This rubber bridge can be shifted/removed to enable a proper vertical test.

Horizontal test:
1. Balance arm as before (no stylus-no stamp...)
2. Apply 0.5 anti-skate on any side of the Anti Skate dial under the tone arm.
3. Bring arm towards center of record.
4. Let arm go.
Arm must return all the way back to rest post without hesitation.
If arm moves without hesitation, then horizontal bearings are ok.
That's it for the test.

If the test shows the arm working properly, then the fault lies with the cart/stylus.
Regards,
k

mrow2
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by mrow2 » 17 Jan 2019 20:11

In addition to this really excellent vertical and horizontal arm function and bearings test, I have had some experience with the needles you describe. In occasional servicing of TTs for others I would often use these, as a way to make the units operational until the actual owner purchased a cartridge system of his/her choice. Most of the time they sounded great. I concluded that a very small percentage of these were simply made incorrectly. Often, it has to do with either the angle of the stylus post as it penetrates the cantilever (sometimes a visible tilt to the right, left, back or cartridge front) or sometimes a little extra glue reaching into the tiny diamond point. One simply had corrosion around the stylus. A replacement stylus from the same vendor resolved the problem in this type of instance. The best vendors are generally anxious to cooperate and maintain their high ratings. So if the tonearm checks out ok, there may be a solution here as well. My guess regarding the cartridge body (audio generator) is that it's probably ok. I generally had other styluses around which I could substitute and provide a quick answer for where to lay blame and that did make this a little easier to make an educated guess.

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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by DSJR » 17 Jan 2019 23:58

My advice, once the deck and arm are checked and found to work correctly, is to get a decent cartridge. the Shure 75 was a bit basic even back then and the conical ones were pretty bland to be honest. Roll on nearly fifty years and I'm afraid that blandness really shows (I have an original or very similar with good stylus that came with my 1019).

A 1218 deserves something better. Without spending shedloads of money, I'd suggest an AT VM95-EN or AT520. Both are comfortable 2g trackers (or slightly less) andboth should give musical insights in them grooves totally lost on the Shure, especially as you can't get proper original styli for them.

ssmikis
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by ssmikis » 18 Jan 2019 16:28

Thank you ALL for giving your time. [-o<
For Dualcan:
I set up my turnable with a spirit level, but i noticed that my tonearm always wants to return near the arm rest, not touch but be near ( antiskating at 0) and it doesn't matter if arm is ascending or descending.
I have hard time to balance arm properly in the manual mode ( above arm rest) and in automatic mode (moving arm to the left activates motor lever).
In between arm rest and plater : balancing to the point of arm is at steady balanced position, but doesn't ascend enough(from highest point) to reach neutral balance position nor descend enough(from lowiest point). from steady neutral position i put 0.05g and arm descends all the way. test done without stylus
horizontal test is ok( even with 0 antiskate), without any aditional issues.

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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by dualcan » 18 Jan 2019 19:51

Hi,
i noticed that my tonearm always wants to return near the arm rest, not touch but be near ( antiskating at 0) and it doesn't matter if arm is ascending or descending.
To get to the corrections needed, let's understand the function of the Dual Anti Skate system first by looking at the original 1019 version, subsequently used on all Dual turntables:
skateometer_11.jpg
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When setting up the AS system, the first item to check is that the arm does not move when the anti skate system is set to zero. Obviously, if the arm moves with the arm in zero A S position, the applied A S force will be skewed by that initial offset
That first zero adjustment of the AS arm or static AS zero adjustment, requires that the spring end above the arm axis, is exactly over the arm axis point. This is achieved by moving the A S arm.
For the 1218, that arm is item 195. That arm also has a set screw on it- item 203:
DSC00563 static adj.JPG
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Once that set screw is turned in to the right position, the arm will no longer travel, when placed over a record. Only then can the dynamical A S. zero calibration take place.
Regards,
k

ssmikis
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by ssmikis » 19 Jan 2019 18:34

consulting [dual 1218 service manual], my turntables cam wheel (ref.No. 200) dot which is showed in the sketch (fig. 9 Anti - skating ) is at the same spot in my turntable.
In the picture A S is set to 0
IMG_20190119_191117.jpg
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dualcan
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by dualcan » 19 Jan 2019 19:48

Hi,
Right you are- the position of your AS cam wheel (200) is the zero AS position, being aligned with a setting gauge and shown here on a 1209:
DSC00276.JPG
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The 1218 you have is an early version as it does not have the adjuster screw which I am adjusting. This early version uses many of the parts from a 1209, its predecessor.
The reason my picture shows the cam at max AS as opposed to zero, is that I needed room to get the pliers into the area. The actual checking was done with the cam set like yours.
With the early 1218 as with the first version of the 1219, the AS arm needs to be bent until the AS spring is exactly over the axis point. This bent is done here (shown on a 1209):
DSC00283.JPG
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I am using a special key that we had for this purpose, but if you use two pliers, you will also get there. It is important to only twist the upright section and not the top of the arm into which the A S spring hooks. The tiniest of twists can be enough or even to much, so constantly check if arm is staying in place over record surface with the zero AS.
Regards,
k

ssmikis
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by ssmikis » 19 Jan 2019 20:12

Wow, some project i'll be having then... :)
Thank you so much for your time!

ssmikis
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by ssmikis » 27 Jan 2019 14:06

Well....Hello,
after week of trying to make this problem to disappear....Here are my thoughts : This is Bull*** :)
Ok, now to the point : bending A S arm I've manage to "catch" neutral point, but the problem is that this "point of neutrality"( the point, where arm doesn't pull to any side) is not wide enough to cover all width of the vinyl record.....is it just my imagination... ?
A S test was made without record or stylus, just floating arm above platter.

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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by dualcan » 27 Jan 2019 17:03

Hi,
I think you will agree with me that the designers and manufacturers of these turntables knew what they were doing. The information from these engineers was disseminated to the service agents in the field, among them, myself.
Perhaps my explanation is lacking and led you a "bull" conclusion, but let's try again, as there is no other solution.
We can take it for granted that if the AS spring is removed, there should be no sideways tension on an otherwise OK arm. This requires us make the spring "nonexistent" when Zero AS is dialed in.
You correctly found the center line over the tonearm axis, but not the center point. This is evidenced by the arm wanting to come to the middle of the playing surface from either side thereof.
What is needed now is to get the proper fore and aft position for the actual spring hook. By bending the arm, you have achieved the center line, but the spring hook has over or under-shot this exact position.
Let's look at the redrawn pic again:
skateometer_11.jpg
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Your corrected center-line adjustment is now shown in yellow and crosses the axis (red dot) perfectly. Because you have over or under shot the axis position (the two green lines), the arm will be pulled from either side as soon as the arm deviates from your chosen mid platter position.
What needs to be done now is to carefully lengthen or shorten the arm, again by bending, to bring the spring hook exactly over the arm's axis center point.
I realize that this is a very fidgety adjustment, but keep in mind, the 1218 tonearm friction, relative to the stylus, is less than 0.01g in the vertical plane and also < 0.02 g, horizontal plane . The AS pull exerted is very near to1/10th the tracking force. With a cart tracking at 1 gram, that produces 0.1 gram pull from the AS spring - properly adjusted.
As we can see, that 0.1g AS pull, although tiny, is many times larger than the arm's horizontal friction. Therein lies the reason why the spring-over-axis placement is so critical.
When working with those tiny forces, alignment is sometimes "mental", but the adjustments are nevertheless critical.
I have the ease of using special factory tooling for these bending and other adjustments, but believe, once the principal of the adjustment is completely understood, the process can be carried out with regular tooling as well.
Having found the center-line adjustment, I know you will carry out the rest with ease, and that's no bull!
Cheers,
k

ssmikis
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by ssmikis » 27 Jan 2019 19:53

No no no! You, good Sir, got me wrong! I apologize if i insulted you. i didin't meant to do it by any means. It's expression of the frustration i'm having. My apologies!

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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by dualcan » 27 Jan 2019 23:42

No need for apologies, no offense taken because I know it was directed at that blasted alignment!
I understand the frustration that comes from a fidgety job like this and the need to explode.
I do that too often myself... Right now I have a bathroom fixture that is driving me %%$*%$.,
It often helps just to put that aggravating item aside for a day or two as well.
What really matters is to get that 1218 in proper shape, then all frustration is gone.
Once you get it proper, perhaps you can post a picture of your unit and enjoy the music from there on.
Cheers,
Klaus

ssmikis
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by ssmikis » 07 Feb 2019 16:00

Hello,
Finally! ......
.....I made those test thingies.
Verical : Arm descends with 0.05g of aditional weight without any issues
Horizontal : arm returns to "near"( i think arm just hits motor auto stop leaver and stop in its tracks) post without any issue.
I didn't made a test play, to confirm if my original problem still exist, yet.

Mr. Dualcan, if i may, i would like to ask you a proper instructions on how to properly lubricate V and H arm bearings.
Thank you.
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ssmikis
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Re: Nedle likes more weight (for some reason)

Post by ssmikis » 07 Feb 2019 16:45

Mrow2 : I'm planing to purshase Shure HI-TRACK stylus if i got lucky and find one available or similar for Shure M-91 md ( my cart is m91 mgd).

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