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Dual 1229 skipping

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Dual 1229 skipping

Postby jimkarl » 17 May 2018 06:52

Just picked up this Dual 1229 with a Shure M91E cartridge with shure stylus installed. It had some typical old grease lockup on the speed changer, start stop etc. Think i resolved all that. Also some wonkiness going on with the steurpimpel (sp?) catching reliably but I hopefully resolved that as well.

One problem that remains is the unit is skipping (single play mode) - stylus jumping back to a previous point and repeating endlessly. I can see the stylus/cataliver moving inward, but the arm isn't following. I always throw the same test record on when testing a table. It's beatup, scratches etc,. but that's somewhat intentional as I want to see what happens in a non-perfect environment.

When the stylus started skipping, I assumed it simply was too worn so I ordered a replacement - only to find it resolved nothing. Same record played on many other tables and there is no issue (clicks and pops yes, but not repeating sections.) On this record, with this table only, it won't even get out of the lead in grove on the record (and many oher spots on the record it gets stuck as well.

The tracking force is set (and verified measured) appropriately at 1.25 grams. The stylus is centered under the cart sled line. Cartridge is horizontally set properly. Tracking force set to match but none of these seem to matter. I can adjust the tracking force differently (heavier), antiskate (less, more, off) etc and nothing resolves it.

It's possible the cart is too far forward or too far back I guess, but I don't have the tool to set. I measure about 7-8mm from front of sled to stylus tip. about 43 mm from stylus tip to back of sled/headshell, and about 23mm from top of sled to stylus tip. Do those sound about right?

Also, this model does not have the adjustable height on the headshell for single/multi play mode like some other duals. So along with the stylus locations measurements from above, I'm wonder if somehow the cartridge angle could be wrong?

I've never had a table do this before with this record. Other thoughts as to what is going wrong?
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby Spinner45 » 17 May 2018 08:34

The 1229 uses a lever by the tonearm pivot - marked "single/multi".
So it doesn't need the "tilting" headshell like the lesser Duals use.
This unit sounds like it was never overhauled, and probably has issues with that single/multi assembly as well.
They ALL do now after 40+ years.
Float the arm at "0", with skating at "0", set the arm at platter's edge, and blow sideways on the headshell - it must float without ANY resistance over the platter.
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby samba » 17 May 2018 10:15

I would also check if the tonearm leads are not entangled in some way with the tonearm or that the leads are just too tight. They come out of the tonearm tube and go into the chassis near the arm pivot point and may be catching the arm and holding it back.
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby DSJR » 17 May 2018 12:39

These bloody 1229's and relatives are becoming collectable now and ALL OF THEM need some SERIOUS restorative work so they can carry on being the sublime players they are underneath. They're NOT for people new to vinyl or auto decks in general in my current opinion. Please excuse any abrasiveness here, but I worry a lot about these decks not being serviced and breakages occurring. The mechanism principles aren't too complex, but there's a lot of extra parts in a 1229 and relatives and these ALL need cleaning of old greases and dried oils and re-doing now after nearly fifty years in HiFi land.

The arm usually has next to no friction in its bearings so is sticking somewhere. Balance the thing out to zero and do the stamp-on-headshell test for vertical movement and then set the arm as far in as it'll go, set the anti-skate to 0.5g max and let go. the arm should proceed smoothly and smartly back to the rest position. This arm will do this at 0.2g setting too, or should. the other way from rest to centre you'd need to gently blow the headshell and see how freely the arm moves.

Before looking at other parts of the mechanism at the tonearm end, the rubber sleeve around part of the underside tonearm height mechanism MUST be replaced if damage to the arm height adjustment mechanism is to be avoided. Loads on here and I believe Mrow2 Don can supply this part and provide pictorial details on how to deal with it - many MANY threads about it here. That's the minimum just to get the thing working at all. If the 'dearing ring' itself is bust, I believe that affects the arm operation even on single records, so hope it's not broken as if you look at the thread not far below this one, it's a BIG job for the uninitiated to undertake repairing this part and not one I'd ever like to contemplate! Thank heavens this part is being re-manufactured as it's the cause of so many 1229's being scrapped or parted out in the past.
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby jimkarl » 17 May 2018 18:08

OK - So it seems like I have 3 issues:
1) The rubber piece i think you are referring to is present (see pic with arrow), but rock hard. I assume that needs to be replaced. Part source? I also noted there was dried grease on the plate below it, so I just cleaned that now.

Dual Rubber.JPG


2) There is basically no free form side to side travel of the arm, regardless of anti skate setting. The arm requires manual movement to move. I don't see any obvious spot it is binding. All pins coming from the tonearm assembly that are going through plates have clearance. With the fixed above noted grease spot all other points of contact are lubed. The arm that goes tot he middle of the table with the little ball bearing is ok and travels smooth etc. Wires seem to have enough clearance. Can't see what is causing the friction

3) The single/multi play switch moves freely and locks in each position, but there is no upperward/downward movement of the tonearm or dearing ring itself, though the ring does move side to side with the switch. It also doesn't seem to be connected in any fashion at the top (see pics in both single and multi play setting)

Dual dearing Single.JPG

Dual Dearing Multi.JPG
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby dualcan » 17 May 2018 18:54

Hi,
That is a broken dearing ring caused by dried lubes and the hard rubber ring. The arm was not allowed to move up and down because of this and the failure result is the broken ring;
Here:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=104392
I am just covering this repair.
Regards,
k
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby Spinner45 » 17 May 2018 18:57

Ok, after all that reading, I conclude that the machine is in dire need of a complete teardown and repair, as I originally thought.
I've seen them in that condition many times now.
Big tedious and involved job, too.
No mistakes or "oops" allowed.
Not for the faint hearted.
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby jimkarl » 17 May 2018 18:58

Safe to assume the dearing ring is broken?
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby dualcan » 17 May 2018 21:31

Hi,
If the Single/Multi switch does not raise/lower the arm, then the dearing ring is broken. Your picture shows that the arm is way too high as we can see the lift spring which should be hidden within the dearing ring and Single/Multi switch.
Regrettably,
k
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby Spinner45 » 18 May 2018 01:06

dualcan wrote:Hi,
If the Single/Multi switch does not raise/lower the arm, then the dearing ring is broken. Your picture shows that the arm is way too high as we can see the lift spring which should be hidden within the dearing ring and Single/Multi switch.
Regrettably,
k


A guy offered to sell me a 1229 once, for 200 bucks.
I saw the broken dearing ring mess and said no, not at that price.
I suppose some sucker bought it eventually.
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby DSJR » 18 May 2018 12:44

This is one nasty time bomb waiting to happen on all decks using this arrangement. A shame now as these decks are beginning to climb hugely in value.

All I can add is that once sorted out, a 1229 is a fabulous 'companion' to enjoy listening to the music from records, so worth the time and effort to fix.
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby samba » 18 May 2018 16:33

It is really a shame, as it can be easily avoided when you know about it.

Not sure if it is serious enough and happens often enough, but would the warning that is always given when somebody asks about a 1219/1229 be something to considering adding as a sticky to the forum?

I realise that you don't want to have too many sticky's, but as DSJR remarks, this is happening more often lately.

DSJR wrote:This is one nasty time bomb waiting to happen on all decks using this arrangement. A shame now as these decks are beginning to climb hugely in value.

All I can add is that once sorted out, a 1229 is a fabulous 'companion' to enjoy listening to the music from records, so worth the time and effort to fix.
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby Tinkaroo » 18 May 2018 16:40

That is not something anyone wants to see.

It is one of the things I mention to watch out for if they say they are looking at a 1219, 1229 or a 1249.
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby jimkarl » 18 May 2018 19:41

Tinkaroo wrote:That is not something anyone wants to see.
.


Why do you say that? It seems it's the most critical failure on a 1219/1229 - why not make that an obvious sticky to look out for, as well as maintenance tip to fix the rubber sleeve before the damage happens?

In any case - I've looked over Dualcan's info on replacing the dearing ring. It's honestly beyond my capabilities and tools set.

The question is - If i had a suitable arm replacement from another unit, say a 1219, where the dearing ring was intact. How difficult is the total arm replacement?
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Re: Dual 1229 skipping

Postby Tinkaroo » 18 May 2018 19:57

I meant nobody wants to see such a terrible thing happen to their turntable.

I agree there should be a sticky of some kind to warn people to keep an eye out for decaying single/multi sleeves and to not force levers.
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