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another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

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another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 19 Jan 2018 09:06

I've used what feels to me the slipperiest of 4 synthetic greases that I had on hand....... got it all together and have a problem --- the fastest i can get is 31 rpm in 33 mode and top speed in 45 mode is 41 rpm....did i use too much? or should I clean it all off and use chainsaw oil or 10w40 motor oil?

I bent the three small taps that hold the bearing assembly together, took it apart, cleaned all the old oil (original oil) and reassembled. There are two different sides to the white bearing assembly, I think I out it back correct. I used the same lube on all these parts including the idler wheel spindle......any ideas?
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby DSJR » 19 Jan 2018 11:24

The idler and main bearing shaft are NOT greased, they're oiled. In all cases, a smear of grease on the ball races and SPARING amounts of oil should be enough as you risk too much 'drag' and sluggish running. The bearing shafts/spindles should use a light machine oil for the idler bearing and a slightly viscous oil for the main bearing, NOT grease please. It looks as if red chainsaw oil is the current replacement suggestion for the renotac original as the latest version of renotac appears to only be available in small drums...

This truly isn't patronising as I've been here myself nearly half a century ago oiling and greasing everything in sight (and more recently on a Garrard AT6 I had a go at and had to clean off to do it properly), but you *can* over-lubricate something and I think Dualcan would agree that in closer-tolerance machines such as Dual decks and also some of the very old Garrards we've discussed with decent main bearings (A70 and so on), less lubricant can appear to be more when running as you don't have massive 'gaps' between metals to take the excess.

All I can beg you is to look carefully at all the Dual service manuals and check all the lubrication points as well as recommendations for the lubes used.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 19 Jan 2018 21:40

thanks, I cleaned it all and used 10w40 engine oil. now works great with speeds from 30 to 37 rpm......the tiny tabs that hold the top washer to the ball bearing assembly broke off however but seems to still work vine as pressure from platter is downward and it all seems to stay in place without them.....
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby DSJR » 20 Jan 2018 11:46

The top thrust washer on the main bearing apparently has a slightly larger diameter than the lower one (I've never dismantled one to confirm) and the platter hub centralises the top washer when in situ. The ball races can have a touch of grease on them (the locating race should be flat side down I'm told, to prevent grease leeching away) but the loading with one LP (no 'stabilising weights please as they'll case the record to dish too much) means little wear usually.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 20 Jan 2018 17:53

DSJR wrote:The top thrust washer on the main bearing apparently has a slightly larger diameter than the lower one (I've never dismantled one to confirm) and the platter hub centralises the top washer when in situ. The ball races can have a touch of grease on them (the locating race should be flat side down I'm told, to prevent grease leeching away) but the loading with one LP (no 'stabilising weights please as they'll case the record to dish too much) means little wear usually.



the two washers seemed same to my eyes.......the white plastic ball race set does seem to have an up and down. shown in up position in my last pic. other than that i just stack it all in the metal cup, washer , ball race, washer each with some oil in between and the three little tabs which - break easily- seem to be inconsequential, the platter weight and centering as you suggest seem to take care of keeping all the ball race and washer cup set in place.

two other non essential parts ive discovered is the idler wheel plastic washer which is easy to lose doesnt seem to be necessary neither the metal spring ring that holds on the main platter. it all plays fine with neither of those two parts in my experience.....the platter is 7 lbs so it stays in place fine, and no other record weight is used by me.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 20 Jan 2018 19:32

upon closer inspection, the two washers are a slight bit different size. which one is on bottom or top i don't know but its hard to imagine it matters? I will check with manual but if anyone knows please let us know...here is a pic with them stacked on top of each other, the smaller is on top in the pic......also regarding the white plastic ball race part, i think the side shown in pic is the 'up' side. the other side does not have the little raised rectangle plastic sections around each ball. So unless i learn otherwise, i have and will continue to assemble as seen in second pic ....and i while i have successfully used a grease in this part ( only one particular grease worked, the other did not i.e. the one i started this thread about), the last time i assembled, motor oil was used and it seemed to work fine, so i plan on using oil in this part
2018-01-20 10_30_34-Greenshot.jpg
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also fyi, if you want to try and not break any of the tiny metal tabs on casing, it seems like only one needs to be flipped up in order to get washers and ball race out. carefully use tiny screwdriver to pry one tab upwards, and then pry each part out. initially i had pried up all three tabs which seems unecessary...


this 3rd pic has the slightly larger diameter washer on top. the only rationale i can think of, as to why it may want to be on the bottom, is to reduce any friction on the inner wall of the metal casing? or perhaps this larger washer is supposed to be on top in order to keep it held tighter? or a third option is that is doesn't matter
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also, for those who value real world first hand experience, i can say that basic car engine 10w40 oil works fine for main spindle and ball race assembly, it gets everything running up to proper speeds and spins forever freehand. It also gets things spinning much better than any of the 4 greases i have (tried 2). But there is the question of whether it (10w40 oil) will continue to stick to vertical surfaces over time....so now that i have sourced chainsaw oil, i can see that it is significantly thicker and stickier than engine oil so i will use it on vertical surfaces and will try it on a ball race assembly as well to see if it works there. if it does then it would be easy and nice to be able to use the chainsaw oil on all parts, vertical idler shaft, vertical main bearing, and ball race assembly.... am trying this experiment now, will report back....
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby Spinner45 » 20 Jan 2018 20:53

The OP used Super Lube originally, and that's fine, as well as putting a smear on the platter bearing shaft.
And yes, even on the idler shaft.
Super Lube will not "drag down" the movement of these parts, to say so is pure hogwash.
The ball race retaining ring - it really doesn't matter which way its oriented, I don't see the fuss over it. Coat it with lube and call it a day.
I've done hoardes of Duals, Garrards, BSR's etc. this way and never, never had an issue with anything.
As for speed problems, that's a matter of properly calibrating the idler height as per service manual.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby DSJR » 20 Jan 2018 21:00

Spinner, it's a bloody good job you don't post on the UK Vintage Radio forum, as posting the above you'd be hauled over the coals BIG TIME as I was recently over my slightly cavalier attitude to different oil types! (I'm so embarrassed I haven't gone back!) Duals ain't BSR's or Garrards, that much I can guarantee and these Dual models have much closer tolerances (I have a collection of both Garrard and Dual marques here at home and have very closely examined and part stripped every one! Sure,a typical popular Garrard can be used with fine grease on the main bearing to take up some of the surplus slop, but Duals, even the cheaper ones, are a rather finer and closer toleranced thing entirely in the important parts and correct lubrication is mandatory for best and most reliable performance. If you don't accept what I say then fine, but I've had discussions with Dualcan Klaus privately about all this and I step in mainly now as he can't at present. Plexi has compared these lubricants with everything else not touched, so the grease he was using has obviously dragged things down a bit. reverting to something more like the manufacturers recommended has sorted this out with no need for further adjustment - and not all Duals have pitch tuning!


Plexi, I can't quote, but there's been much discussion in fairly recent times about all this. In Klaus's absence, I think I can summarise (others lurking here, please confirm!) by saying that the main bearing spindle ideally needs a more viscous oil than a straight engine oil as a more viscous oil is sticky and won't run away down the spindle with time. The platter bearing sleeves are oil retaining though, but I say the above for completeness.

The two thrust washers are positioned with the smaller inner diameter at the bottom and the larger one at the top. the platter hub 'locates' the top washer properly then. As per your pictures, the flat side of the race is underneath and the raised sections are facing top, so they hold the grease better I was told... If you mess up, replacement used race assemblies (complete with outer 'cage') can be got from organdonorparts as long as the part numbers match (I think they do mostly).

Dual recommended different lubes for different parts of the deck and yes, they used a different grease on the old 1019 than later 12** series models, so best to always clean off the old stuff before lightly applying later greases and oils. The 10-40 is fine for some underside pivot linkages, if the old greae is cleaned off, your superlube grease may well be ok, although Don here (Mrow2) supplies the proper stuff so why do differently just because you can?

This is where the SERVICE MANUAL comes in handy, as it'll show you where and what to apply. Dual used to make a service kit with the three oils and a small pot of Alvania grease. Shame it was discontinued decades ago. I still have a sealed phial of one of the oils but can't remember which it is :( the renotac main bearing oil was red colour and has a lovely *smooth* texture in the fingers. The main bearing oil MUST be ok with sintered bearing sleeves and there's doubt over many modern gearbox oils for example as some have undesirable additives bad for bronze sintered types apparently.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 20 Jan 2018 21:40

I did the below steps before the last two posts from spinner or dsjr, so will read them now, but meanwhile this is what i did, with great success imo fwiw , ymmv etc.....I looked at the manual and it did not explode the bearing assembly at all to tell me what to use or how to clean it. By the way, this entire discussion is ONLY regarding idler parts and central spindle bearing.assembly.....all underneath 'auto'/ switching parts are removed and someone else's problem ! This table is simple manual. no maintenance etc. one of life's last freedoms. the freedom to mod a turntable, oh the joy. To purists, i am sorry, it has to be done in my case. there are plenty of other duals out there that are original to showcase the great engineering (which i agree it is), but manual tables is what give me joy. to each his own..

So I oiled all parts in question with chainsaw oil,,,,idler assembly and central bearing assembly and spindle.....I think this method works fine. It spins freehand about as long as with motor oil (which is a long time). and in operation under no load I get a range of 32 to 38 rpm. With motor oil I was getting a bit less for what it's worth. Actually I wish the range was a bit lower as I like to detune some albums or tracks a bit down, sometimes to 31.5 to 33 and the newly oiled table doesn't drag as much as it used to. Also, I measured under at14sa stylus load and it only added .2rpm drag for what its worth (so lowest rpm I can get under actual conditions is 31.8 rpm). I've always wondered how much stylus drag added, now i know with my high compliance carts at least.... But because the chainsaw oil is stickier and thicker I forsee this lasting longer than with a standard oil. i.e. less maintenence/longer time between maintenance....so unless anyone can give a reason why I shouldn't use chainsaw oil for all these parts, this is my method.

step 1: spread e clip and remove idler assembly and plastic washer to clean with iso alcohol.
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step2: oil idler assembly shaft and add plastic washer back, ridge uopwards, oil washer, replace idler assembly
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step3: open bearing assembly housing by bending up one tab carefully. slide out both washers, plastic bearing assembly and rubber washer. clean all with iso alcohol.
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step4: dry all parts and start reassembly, place rubber gasget down (ridge facing up) - no oil used.....then add first larger washer, again no oil needed...I flipped mine over to use a fresh surface. other side had been used and wear could be seen. likely makes no difference though as wear was only visible likely not meaningful)
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step5: oil top of first washer with chainsaw oil, add plastic bearing assembly with the proper face upwards. liberally oil this part with same oil.
4 add oil then assembly then more oil.jpg
Last edited by plexi on 20 Jan 2018 22:15, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 20 Jan 2018 21:44

step6: add last washer ( again I flipped this over from when it was new - look close and you can see the old bearing wear on top of this washer), and close the open tab. Oil main vertical spindle with same oil and drop in bearing assembly.
6 add last washer, close and oil spindle.jpg



done. in my opinion, one oil (chainsaw) for these parts is reasonable and works fine.

Also, to be clear again, I removed all auto parts on my 1019 and made it a manual table. All I keep is the motor, central bearing and start/stop/idler engage switch. all else is removed..best working and sounding table I own. beats my two custom lencos and old garrard 401 for my tastes. the lencos do not have as clear a upper bass to lower mid transition no matter what mod i tried to the lencos (iu've spent many many hours and tried several custom plinths to remove what i hear as slight but meaningful Lenco monobass tendency (also tried several arms)- it's a quality in the table... whereas the duals (i have 3) all sound perfect with no obscure upper bass or 'one note bass' as my lencos tend to have. The lencos may have a touch more overall resolution but it's so close. the 1019 is just a better listen to my ears all around.....The dual is also preferred to my ears over my old replinthed garrard 401 as it sounded too regimented and stiff for my tastesI guess I like my idlers with a touch of belt drive 'variation'. The garrard 401 is clearly the 'better' table, but i sold mine for $1300 and bought two other 1019's for $40 ea.....The 1019 is a classic, love it.
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the only other mod i do to the 1019 is detailed in another post ( i support the main spindle with a cross metal member)
Last edited by plexi on 20 Jan 2018 22:25, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 20 Jan 2018 22:06

@dsjr,
The two thrust washers are positioned with the smaller inner diameter at the bottom and the larger one at the top. the platter hub 'locates' the top washer properly then


One washer has a slightly smaller hole (ID)but it is also the one with the larger outer diameter . the other washer (top placement) has a slightly smaller OD but larger ID....so the 'larger' Outer diameter washer you are calling out as being on bottom, as it has smaller ID. So I think we are saying the same thing and this is how I asembled
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby Spinner45 » 20 Jan 2018 23:18

DSJR wrote:Spinner, it's a bloody good job you don't post on the UK Vintage Radio forum, as posting the above you'd be hauled over the coals BIG TIME as I was recently over my slightly cavalier attitude to different oil types!


Oh please, those types of people are nothing but an annoying bunch, with annoying hangups.
I have serviced, calibrated, adjusted, and measured noise levels on a plethora of turntables/changers over the decades.
And include tapes decks of all types as well.
All of them serviced by me, and all of them pleasing the owners since then.
All that annoying rubbish about using specific "old school" lubricants "just because someone said so" is just that, annoying.
Because back in those days it was obviously the only suitable thing to use.
Now, things have changed, synthetic greases and oils are perfected, and so I choose them over any "old style" petroleum product, which dries out and is chemically unstable over time.
My results are founded in fact, and something I worked on decades ago is still "like new" condition and performance.
So I don't listen or bother with babble from critics.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 20 Jan 2018 23:24

I am surprised at how little lubricant this table needs actually. ( a testament to the quality of machined parts?)/ So. the 2nd 1019 I am servicing is getting even less oil, to see if I can get a better rpm range for my tastes which would be 30-36, not the 32-38 I got with current table. Also over time one would expect this to decrease a bit. But for the layman, I am very pleased with the chainsaw oil. Will see how it holds up over time. should be fine I am guessing. But I was surprised how much stickier the chainsaw oil is from standard engine oil or the two other 'turntable' oils I have that came with other tables. But regardless of being sticky, the chainsaw oil still seems to be super slippery to the touch and proven in reality, that it allows full operation of the platter and idler in my case. so It's perfectly suited in my inexperienced opinion.
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 21 Jan 2018 01:10

wow, was i wrong about the washer(thrust bearing?) size not mattering. It is the difference between it fitting over the brass sleave from the platter or not fitting over it at all. The 2nd scenario (washer with smaller ID) as seen in video shows how it does not fit over and the bottom of brass platter just rides on top of the washer....these are two totally different things. IF dsjr is correct and it is the washer with the larger ID that is at top and comes into contact with brass (platter), then it is the 1st part in video. Which does 'locate' the platter, but it also snags quite a bit. If that is indeed how it should work, I'm trying to understand exactly how the platter is being moved. Is the top washer stuck to the platter and it rotates with the platter on the bearings?......or the 2nd scenario (2nd part in vid) which uses the other washer, then the platter rides on top of that washer.

https://youtu.be/XYnZkEq0C0A
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Re: another dual lubrication issue. basic spindle and idler

Postby plexi » 21 Jan 2018 02:46

so, i've come to a conclusion dsjr is correct and the larger ID washer is the top washer. The brass sleeve from the platter bearing fits INSIDE this top washer. So it is critical that the washers be reinstalled this way. And it actually is a smooth fit. So I believe the washer is not stuck to the platter but neither is it totally free from it. It must must be moving in conjunction with the 5 bearings to allow the platter to turn. The bottom washer however is likely purely stationary.
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