1229Q Start/Stop issues

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apmanley
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1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by apmanley » 06 Jan 2018 18:54

I'm in the process of restoring a 1229Q, and for the most part after taking it apart, cleaning, and relubing, I've got it up and running. The only two issues I'm finding are:
  • The auto shutoff mechanism isn't working for at the end of a record. Instead of stopping and returning the tonearm to rest, it just keeps spinning around. I've cleaned the cam, and relubed it, as well as cleaned the friction plate (which is what I think the issue is). I lubricated the friction plate according to Dualcan's guide on vinyl engine (he says use 100,000 vis. silicon oil and shell alvania grease; I used Super Lube synthetic grease, so maybe that's my issue). And the aluminum arm that travels with the tonearm doesn't appear bent, and it hits the friction plate when I move the tonearm inwards. So I'm wondering if it's just still a lubrication issue on the friction plate?

    The start and stop switch works, but the cycle doesn't completely spin out at the end, if that makes sense. In other words, when I hit stop, the tonearm will rise and return to rest, however the platter stops spinning with the strobe still on, and the start/stop switch stuck in the stop position. If I manually turn the platter a few times, it will complete the cycle, with the strobe turning off, etc. When starting, it will turn on, but won't begin to move the tonearm or spin the platter, unless I move the tonearm inwards. What I believe is causing the issue is the idler wheel not making appropriate contact with the motor pulley unless the tonearm is in a position close to the platter (not necessarily over it, just not in its resting position). I've taken apart and cleaned the platform the idler wheel is on, as well as the part that platform rotates around, but I'm not sure what could be causing this. It seems like a weak spring? But I don't want to replace the spring unless I know that's it for sure.

musicmn
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by musicmn » 07 Jan 2018 18:36

Hi, the problem is not a weak spring it's still old dried up grease in the mechanism. There are a couple of places that could be causing this issue. One part that is consistently frozen from old grease is the switch arm [first picture] {ref number 188 part number 218 308} in the exploded view of the service manual. The problem is actually the post {grooved shaft ref number 192 part number 216 778} that this switch arm pivots on. This shaft and the inside of the brass bore that slips over the grooved shaft that is part of this arm must be cleaned of all old grease. Then fresh grease applied as it's assembled. Usually I have to heat the grooved shaft with a large soldering gun to remove the switch arm. Once clean the switch arm must move freely in order to stop this constant cycling of the tonearm. To remove the switch arm the motor must be moved out of the way. And the switch blade {ref number 167} will need to be removed. Just slide the switch blade out of the way and tape it down to the plinth. That way it won't mess up the contact in the terminal housing. "C" clip {ref number 160} and the spring that is part of the idler wheel assembly that fits over the shaft at this end of the switch arm must also be removed. On one end of the switch arm is the pawl {ref number 273} this a copper piece that once the tonearm is moved trips the switch arm to turn the turntable on or off. Make sure that there is no old grease under this pawl where it rides on the plinth. I use a thin rag dip in alcohol to clean under it, around it and even under the washer that is attached to it. I know Dualcan has cover this before but I thought I would let you what I have been finding on the dual turntables I have been working on lately. Last yr I serviced four 1229's and two 1229q's along with a bunch of other models. And so far this yr I have serviced a 1229, 1219, 1226, and a 1225. And I still have eight to ten more dual turntables of various models to go through. The one thing they all have in common is the old grease issue. And all the old grease must be removed in order for these turntables to work correctly. Super lube grease is fine it's just not recommended for these mechanisms because it's a little thin and can cause the mechanism to be a little noisy when it's in motion. I've included a couple of extra pictures of another area that can and will cause issues with the tonearm if it's not addressed. I hope something here helps.
Attachments
001 (Copy).JPG
red arrow is switch arm, green arrow is grooved shaft. The switch arm must pivot freely on this shaft. Do not touch the screw on the switch arm below the green arrow.
(924.54 KiB) Downloaded 432 times
Dual 1229 new O ring Lifter ring 003 (Copy).JPG
RED arrow is a new lifter ring installed after everything was cleaned and lubricated. The yellow arrow shows the gap that must be between the segment plate {ref number 201} and the guild piece{ref number 232} in order for the tonearm to work smoothly. The guild piece can be adjusted so the segment plate passes through it with out touching it in both single play and multi play modes.
(753.2 KiB) Downloaded 425 times
Dual 1219 turntable extra pics 001 (Copy).JPG
Red arrow old black lifter ring. Even though it looks good it's actually hard as a rock from age and needs to be replaced. If the single play / multi lever is moved before this lifter ring is replaced you will break parts under the tonearm. The yellow arrow is the shaft that passes through the brass sleeve where two small ball bearings are. It must be cleaned and lubricated in order for these parts to work correctly.
(925.72 KiB) Downloaded 439 times

apmanley
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by apmanley » 07 Jan 2018 20:19

This is super helpful, however, part 167 in the 1229Q manual directs me to an electrical case, and I don't see the equivalent of 167 in the 1229 manual in the 1229Q manual.

apmanley
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by apmanley » 07 Jan 2018 20:46

Also, is it possible to replace the lifter ring without disconnecting the tonearm? My understanding is removing tonearm equipment requires soldering, which I don't have the proper equipment for (I know a technician that does work on these turntables, so I would take it there for that work).

musicmn
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by musicmn » 07 Jan 2018 21:20

Hi, sorry about the part number I was using my 1229 service manual. The pawl is the copper colored piece on one end of the switch arm. Just give the pawl and the area under it and around it a good cleaning with a thin rag dipped in alcohol. You can replace the lifter ring with out removing the tonearm just be very careful of the small ball bearings under the ring. I use a small magnet capture the ball bearings. Clean them well with alcohol and clean the brass sleeve and the post going through it well. Then get the super lube worked into the brass sleeve and on the post. Work the single play / multi play lever slowly and easily until it works smoothly. If you feel any excess resistance while moving the lever stop. At that point the tonearm will need to be removed so the parts under the tonearm plate associated with the single play / multi play lever can be cleaned and lubricated. This has been explained in a lot of other post and by dualcan on his site.

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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by StylusLady » 15 Jan 2019 22:59

I’m restoring a Dual 1229 and Dualcan’s smateur guide has been very helpful. However, I was thrilled to come across musicmn’s post, as I am having trouble with start/stiop switch mechanism. The screw he said was tough to loosen was okay on my table, but the one to the right I circled in red ( see pic) was a bearcat!
85FCA888-48AE-4E00-8076-FADC6AA7C5D6.jpeg
(205.38 KiB) Downloaded 164 times
After cleaning, lubing, it appears I’m having trouble because of the area I circled in blue, which appears to get stuck on start. Perhaps the switch mechanism riding over it is too low? Does the screw at green arrow raise and lower height?

P.S.I’m the first girl I’ve come across on these forums, but what I lack in technical saavy, I make up for in persistence.

mrow2
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by mrow2 » 16 Jan 2019 00:26

Pix redux of Klaus' old black lifter ring, maybe a little easier to see as it normally looks prior to remove and replace operation. (apologies to K, a fun photo edit opportunity for Don). I have supple Tygon lift rings if anyone would like one which is pre-adjusted, alvania greased, and ready to install. Many of the old rings are noticeably cracked, others appear to be ok, but as Klaus said, all old ones should be replaced to protect the single/multi mechanism. -- Don
Old lift ring (Klaus' 1229 refurb).JPG
(236.4 KiB) Downloaded 142 times
Red arrow old black lifter ring. Even though it looks good it's actually hard as a rock from age and needs to be replaced. If the single play / multi lever is moved before this lifter ring is replaced you will break parts under the tonearm. The yellow arrow is the shaft that passes through the brass sleeve where two small ball bearings are. It must be cleaned and lubricated in order for these parts to work correctly.

StylusLady
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by StylusLady » 16 Jan 2019 00:37

I just ordered pdf manual from eBay, and will see if this helps. Thanks.

Tinkaroo
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by Tinkaroo » 16 Jan 2019 11:10

StylusLady wrote:
15 Jan 2019 22:59
I’m restoring a Dual 1229 and Dualcan’s smateur guide has been very helpful. However, I was thrilled to come across musicmn’s post, as I am having trouble with start/stiop switch mechanism. The screw he said was tough to loosen was okay on my table, but the one to the right I circled in red ( see pic) was a bearcat!
85FCA888-48AE-4E00-8076-FADC6AA7C5D6.jpeg
After cleaning, lubing, it appears I’m having trouble because of the area I circled in blue, which appears to get stuck on start. Perhaps the switch mechanism riding over it is too low? Does the screw at green arrow raise and lower height?

P.S.I’m the first girl I’ve come across on these forums, but what I lack in technical saavy, I make up for in persistence.
Hopefully Klaus will be able to answer this if he has time. He helped me through an issue on my 1249, and will help you if you are willing to work with him.

I also own a 1229Q and it is a beautiful turntable when working as it should. As far as an apparent lack of women goes on this and other audio forums, sometimes it's a case of staying anonymous so that everyone is on a level playing field, even if that means they sometimes get called "dude", or "sir"! :lol:

Can you please help out Styluslady Klaus? =D>

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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by DSJR » 16 Jan 2019 16:11

Re the trip pawls/friction plate on the main cam. I always said to leave totally dry as drag here will affect cartridge tracking at end of side. Klaus responded that on THIS deck and possibly it's siblings 1218 and 1228, to put a tiny drop of damping fluid on the PIVOT of these fine plates to preven excess shake when cycling at 78rpm. I don't remember him ever suggesting fluid on the sliding surfaces themselves as this is a recipe for trouble later on if not immediately!

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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by dualcan » 16 Jan 2019 17:32

Hi,
Regarding the original post:
The start and stop switch works, but the cycle doesn't completely spin out at the end, if that makes sense. In other words, when I hit stop, the tonearm will rise and return to rest, however the platter stops spinning with the strobe still on, and the start/stop switch stuck in the stop position. If I manually turn the platter a few times, it will complete the cycle, with the strobe turning off, etc.
This seems to indicate that the idler wheel is slipping and needs dressing or changing plus platter drive surface thoroughly cleaned, more than anything else.
and
The screw he said was tough to loosen was okay on my table, but the one to the right I circled in red ( see pic) was a bearcat!
This bolt (1229 item 189) should actually not be opened unless there is a latching problem with the pawl (273). The bolt holds the two halves of the main switch arm (item 188) in proper position as outlined in Fig 26 page 14. This adjustment almost never varies and should not be altered. If there is excessive wear on the cam (165) than maybe, but even then, the cam would most likely need changing first.
Regards,
Klaus

StylusLady
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by StylusLady » 16 Jan 2019 23:33

Tinkaroo wrote:
16 Jan 2019 11:10
StylusLady wrote:
16 Jan 2019 11:10
[quote=StylusLady post_id=944807 time=<a href="tel:1547589591">1547589591</a> user_id=484659]
I’m restoring a Dual 1229 and Dualcan’s smateur guide has been very helpful. However, I was thrilled to come across musicmn’s post, as I am having trouble with start/stiop switch mechanism. The screw he said was tough to loosen was okay on my table, but the one to the right I circled in red ( see pic) was a bearcat!
85FCA888-48AE-4E00-8076-FADC6AA7C5D6.jpeg
After cleaning, lubing, it appears I’m having trouble because of the area I circled in blue, which appears to get stuck on start. Perhaps the switch mechanism riding over it is too low? Does the screw at green arrow raise and lower height?

P.S.I’m the first girl I’ve come across on these forums, but what I lack in technical saavy, I make up for in persistence.
Hopefully Klaus will be able to answer this if he has time. He helped me through an issue on my 1249, and will help you if you are willing to work with him.

I also own a 1229Q and it is a beautiful turntable when working as it should. As far as an apparent lack of women goes on this and other audio forums, sometimes it's a case of staying anonymous so that everyone is on a level playing field, even if that means they sometimes get called "dude", or "sir"! :lol:

Can you please help out Styluslady Klaus? =D>
[album][/album]time=1547589591 user_id=484659]
I’m restoring a Dual 1229 and Dualcan’s smateur guide has been very helpful. However, I was thrilled to come across musicmn’s post, as I am having trouble with start/stiop switch mechanism. The screw he said was tough to loosen was okay on my table, but the one to the right I circled in red ( see pic) was a bearcat!
85FCA888-48AE-4E00-8076-FADC6AA7C5D6.jpeg
After cleaning, lubing, it appears I’m having trouble because of the area I circled in blue, which appears to get stuck on start. Perhaps the switch mechanism riding over it is too low? Does the screw at green arrow raise and lower height?

P.S.I’m the first girl I’ve come across on these forums, but what I lack in technical saavy, I make up for in persistence.
[/quote]

Hopefully Klaus will be able to answer this if he has time. He helped me through an issue on my 1249, and will help you if you are willing to work with him.

I also own a 1229Q and it is a beautiful turntable when working as it should. As far as an apparent lack of women goes on this and other audio forums, sometimes it's a case of staying anonymous so that everyone is on a level playing field, even if that means they sometimes get called "dude", or "sir"! :lol:

Can you please help out Styluslady Klaus? =D>
[/quote]

Thanks, Tinkeroo. Actually, I’m a big fan of The Big Lebowski, so I don’t mind being called “Dude’—“Chick”, either. As for “Sir”, I side with the Army’s non-coms, one of who yelled, “Sir?!, Don’t you dare call me that! I WORK for a living!”

StylusLady
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by StylusLady » 16 Jan 2019 23:52

Thanks, Klaus. Looks like I’ve opened a can of worms re the bolt and pawl. I sure hope I didn’t make things worse. However, I was looking at a Dual 1219 service manual that refers to adjusting the 1219’s pawl location to keep the start stop switch from getting stuck on stop when arm returns to its rest: hence, my original question regarding the role of these parts in switch getting stuck.
By the way, I’m not having problems with idler wheel, as your reply to the original poster indicates. Thanks.
dualcan wrote:
16 Jan 2019 17:32
Hi,
Regarding the original post:
The start and stop switch works, but the cycle doesn't completely spin out at the end, if that makes sense. In other words, when I hit stop, the tonearm will rise and return to rest, however the platter stops spinning with the strobe still on, and the start/stop switch stuck in the stop position. If I manually turn the platter a few times, it will complete the cycle, with the strobe turning off, etc.
This seems to indicate that the idler wheel is slipping and needs dressing or changing plus platter drive surface thoroughly cleaned, more than anything else.
and
The screw he said was tough to loosen was okay on my table, but the one to the right I circled in red ( see pic) was a bearcat!
This bolt (1229 item 189) should actually not be opened unless there is a latching problem with the pawl (273). The bolt holds the two halves of the main switch arm (item 188) in proper position as outlined in Fig 26 page 14. This adjustment almost never varies and should not be altered. If there is excessive wear on the cam (165) than maybe, but even then, the cam would most likely need changing first.
Regards,
Klaus

dualcan
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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by dualcan » 17 Jan 2019 00:06

Hi,
I was looking at a Dual 1219 service manual that refers to adjusting the 1219’s pawl location to keep the start stop switch from getting stuck on stop when arm returns to its rest: hence, my original question regarding the role of these parts in switch getting stuck.
Can you give me the page or Figure number which you looked at in the manual? I'd like to be on the "same page" as you to understand better.
The idler issue was from/for the first poster, so may not pertain to your unit - it still is a good idea to clean though...
Regards,
k

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Re: 1229Q Start/Stop issues

Post by StylusLady » 18 Jan 2019 08:35

I thought I sent reply yesterday’s, but something didn’t take. It is at page 14 of service manual—https://www.vinylengine.com/ve_download ... ervice.pdf

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