1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

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nebulix
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1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by nebulix » 11 Mar 2019 01:02

Forgive me if this topic has been covered before. My searches haven't turned up this exact condition.

I have adjusted the speed on my 1219 as per the manuals, setting the speed adjustment knob to the centre position and
adjusting set screw (116) to align the idler wheel in the middle of the pulley step. This results in slow speeds with the strobe disc, on all three steps. The only way I can get the 33 RPM speed spot on, is to adjust the idler wheel so that it just rides on the top rim of the 45 RPM pulley step.
1219 Spindle.jpg
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This is no good because a) the speed is not stable in this position - it either creeps faster or slower, and b) I'm afraid of wearing a rut into the bottom of the idler wheel.

I suspect that the pulley has been worn down or perhaps the idler wheel itself. Does this make sense? Or should that cause it to speed up?

Alec124c41
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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by Alec124c41 » 11 Mar 2019 02:12

The actual size of the idler wheel is not critical.
Have you cleaned and lubricated all rotating parts? This means motor bearings, idler axle, and platter bearings.

Cheers,
Alec

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by nebulix » 11 Mar 2019 02:16

Yes, it's all been thoroughly done. I think it has to be the pulley itself. Perhaps it's been sanded down or something.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by Spinner45 » 11 Mar 2019 03:53

nebulix wrote:
11 Mar 2019 02:16
Yes, it's all been thoroughly done. I think it has to be the pulley itself. Perhaps it's been sanded down or something.
There's no need for anyone to sand down that motor pulley, if someone did, they're an idiot.
The surfaces of it should show a nice polish on each step with no grooving.
Manually spinning the motor with the fingers, it should spin for a few moments, and come to a "rocking back and forth" stop.
If not, the motor needs service.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by nebulix » 11 Mar 2019 04:34

Indeed. There are a lot of idiots out there selling "fully-serviced" Duals.

You think it could be the motor? I'll try that spin test on it. Thanks.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by mrow2 » 11 Mar 2019 06:30

If the pulley has no grooving and is shiny, pretty and smooth, that might be an indication it has been "dressed (sanded)." Normally there might be a sign of a groove where the optimal speed setting was. Yes, if it was sanded to excess (would not take much) then it could affect the speed range. They are soft and do show wear (grooving). If the motor was not properly serviced with the right oil in the bearings, it's possible that it might be slow. The clamshell bolts should not be over tightened as that could create a little unwanted friction (on some) but I imagine the motor would get pretty hot in that circumstance. The idler wheel can be "dressed" and it's recommended to do so for several reasons, if it's not done to excess but it should not be the cause of the speed question. The platter can be checked and gently dressed with a fine grit paper all around, then cleaned with alcohol/soft cloth. In any event don't allow any fingerprints to be placed on it.

You could obtain a new pulley if in doubt; it might just solve the problem. It must be the correct part number for your 1219, and I believe it is 218-276 but regardless, be sure it's for 60Hz. Someone else could verify the pulley number.

If you are using a heavy record clamp, it does place some stress on the entire drive system and probably causes a bit of extra wear.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by samba » 11 Mar 2019 12:39

As the motor has been serviced, I assume the error is not with the motor speed.
As mentioned before, the inner rim of the platter must be clean, as well as the pulley and the idler (no grease).
Have you dressed the idler as described in the service guide?
Further, I assume you checked that threaded pin 118 is thightened well.

This leaves the pulley diameter as suggested before.

Does the platter turn too slow or too fast when the idler is in the proper position?

It could be that you have the wrong pulley, a 50 Hz instead of a 60 Hz (or vice versa), but I do not think it is the case.
A 50 Hz spindle has a larger diameter than a 60 Hz. If you use a 50 Hz spindle at 60 Hz, it will result in a higher linear velocity which will be transfered by the idler to the platter. In that case, you would have had to move the idler upwards.

If I look at your sketch, the speed was probably too low as you needed to adjust the pulley to an area of the pulley with a larger diameter. If the pulley was machined down in diameter, you would need to adjust the idler as you did.

You can check the dimensions of the pulleys in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=91677&start=45#p790921

This is all of course assuming that you just got the machine and do not know about its maintenance history, if you had it for a long time and it ran fine before, something else is wrong.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by nebulix » 11 Mar 2019 14:27

Thank you all for the excellent tips.

I rebuilt the motor exactly as in Klaus' motor guide, and it's not overheating. I slightly dressed the idler wheel in a drillpress at high speed.

I've re-lubed the entire speed control mechanism, as well as the idler bushing and arm. The inside rim of the platter, idler and pulley have all been cleaned with isopropanol. The thing is, with idler in the middle of the step, the TT works perfectly -- it's quiet, the speed is stable, motor runs cool -- it's just too slow.

It's always had this problem and the pulley looks like bright shiny brass, as in "new", so I believe it may be suspect. Thanks Klaus, et al, for the pulley dimensions. I will check it with the calipers and hopefully solve this mystery.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by tep392 » 15 Mar 2019 16:42

Are the 45 and 78 speeds ok?

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by mrow2 » 15 Mar 2019 20:31

Conduct a search for a new old stock replacement pulley. tep392's question could have relevance here, i.e. if those readings are better, it points to wear on the existing pulley. Pulleys are occasionally available; wouldn't hurt. Anyone: Seems like I've read that mains fluctuations or under-volt can affect speed (since the utility is continually balancing demand with supply), i.e. what a strobe reads in the AM might not be the same as in the evening? What is the actual line voltage reading of the OP's particular location if this is relevant?

If it is posted above, I didn't see it. Just how slow is the speed at 33.3rpm setting with idler in the middle of the pulley?

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by Spinner45 » 15 Mar 2019 23:20

On those Duals, the idler must be centered on each motor step with the pitch control also at center.
Thus when turning the pitch control through its full range, and observing the idler, it must go through its full range of "high to low" on that particular the motor step.
There are some details in the service manual pertaining to that I believe.
And of course, the retaining washer must be snapped back onto the idler, keeping it from shifting.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by nebulix » 06 Jul 2019 05:46

OK, I'm revisiting this thread as I've finally found a decent 1219 donor deck. It's a very neglected, but mechanically sound 1219, and the speeds are rock solid.

I transplanted the motor pulley, idler wheel and the pink plastic bottom washer from the donor to my slow 1219. Low and behold, it still runs slow. Then I put my old suspect pulley and idler on the donor deck, and it runs at the correct speed. So my theory about a worn pulley is unfounded.

That leaves only thing: the motor is running slow. As I mentioned, I did the complete Klaus motor rebuild and it runs smooth and doesn't seem to overheat. (I've done a number of these motor rebuilds successfully now.) But I'm wondering if perhaps I may not have aligned the two halves properly on the 1219, maybe something binding the bearings, causing it to drag.

I can replace the motor with the donor deck, but obviously I'd like to get them both working. Does anyone know if the motor goes bad? (e.g. slow/worn). I know that Klaus says to thoroughly wash out all the old lubricant and felt washers, which I did, otherwise mixing different oils can cause the sintered bearings to gum up and bind. I'd be surprised if this were the case.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by ricksbsa » 06 Jul 2019 15:25

Possible defective stator? If time isn't an issue, you could install the stator from the good motor onto the slow one and see what happens.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by nebulix » 06 Jul 2019 22:17

So today I tested both the stator coils on both motors and they all read just under 350 ohms.

I put the known-good donor motor into the slow 1219 and it's STILL running slow. I'm really stumped.

Here's where I have to put the idler to get it to run at speed:
spindle.JPG
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The good news is, at least I know I have two good motors, spindles and idlers. There's something about my old 1219 that's not quite right, even after having replaced all these parts. (In desperation, I even replaced the platter to no avail. The bearing is good -- it continues to spin for 2 minutes after power off.)

One clue is, Spinner mentioned above that the idler has to do a full travel on all three spindle steps, and I notice that mine's not doing that. On the pitch dial, from minus to centre, it doesn't really move much. From centre to plus, it travels normally. So there's some adjustment to do on the speed mechanism. I did do a complete degreasing and re-lube a while back, but it will require another look.

In any case, the idler does travel down the spindle, but it bottoms out without rotating fast enough.

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Re: 1219 Speed, Pulley, Idler Issue

Post by mrow2 » 07 Jul 2019 06:00

I wonder if your idler is level or bent-in when running against the platter drum. i.e. proper horizontal alignment, or is it being dragged down as so many have done, that I've seen. This cannot be that difficult to resolve.

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