The Never Ending SL-DD33 Story Part IV

anything and nothing
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Japi Roelofs
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by Japi Roelofs » 11 Jun 2019 17:43

It does work. Without antiskating the stylus would have rushed to the center of the turntable and then onto the label.

chriz74
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by chriz74 » 11 Jun 2019 17:46

Japi Roelofs wrote:
11 Jun 2019 17:43
It does work. Without antiskating the stylus would have rushed to the center of the turntable and then onto the label.
From what I can see on videos online and explanation the arm should stay where you put it and not move at all. It’s not happening here. If you have a better explanation please let me know.

Here a working anti skate:

chriz74
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by chriz74 » 11 Jun 2019 17:59

P.S. in the video the VTF is 1.25g as per specs. I tried to set at 1.40 and 1.50 , nothing changed.

Sunwire
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by Sunwire » 11 Jun 2019 19:53

If you really think it sucks, you should probably get rid of it. :)

It looks like the antiskating is working.
As Japi already noted: Without antiskating the stylus would have rushed to the center of the turntable and then onto the label.

I've never understood the logic of using a blank disc for antiskate adjustment. I can see that it might get you close, but that's just a coincidence.
We don't play records without grooves and we don't play records with the tip of the stylus.
The situation of playing a record with two edges of the stylus in a groove full of modulations is very different from playing a blank disc with the point of the stylus.

In any case, antiskating is always an approximation since the required antiskating force will depend on position on the record, the type of stylus, and the modulation level of the groove (quiet passage versus loud passage).

I think the youtube video you posted showing the guy changing the antiskate setting is interesting, but there are too many other variables in play to use it as the definitive statement on how antiskating should work. The record doesn't appear to be completely smooth and he's using a Shure cartridge with a brush on it, which will definitely affect the skating behavior.

I think test records are a better way to check antiskating. This is the method recommended by Shure.
Ortofon says: "A simple recommendation for a rather precise bias: if you hear distortion in say right channel when using recommended tracking force, increase the bias scale and vice versa."
But, in any case, you will never get it perfect for every situation.

I looked at the service manual. I'm not certain, but it looks like maybe spring 52-2 is for antiskating. If not, maybe 52-1 is the one.
AntiSkate.jpg
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If you think you're not getting enough, you could twist it a turn or two to tighten it up.

If I was you, I would not worry about it unless you are hearing mistracking on one channel.
I would also run the VTF at 1.4 g, which will help prevent mistracking in all cases.

chriz74
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by chriz74 » 11 Jun 2019 20:00

Sunwire wrote:
11 Jun 2019 19:53
If you really think it sucks, you should probably get rid of it. :)

It looks like the antiskating is working.
As Japi already noted: Without antiskating the stylus would have rushed to the center of the turntable and then onto the label.

I've never understood the logic of using a blank disc for antiskate adjustment. I can see that it might get you close, but that's just a coincidence.
We don't play records without grooves and we don't play records with the tip of the stylus.
The situation of playing a record with two edges of the stylus in a groove full of modulations is very different from playing a blank disc with the point of the stylus.

In any case, antiskating is always an approximation since the required antiskating force will depend on position on the record, the type of stylus, and the modulation level of the groove (quiet passage versus loud passage).

I think the youtube video you posted showing the guy changing the antiskate setting is interesting, but there are too many other variables in play to use it as the definitive statement on how antiskating should work. The record doesn't appear to be completely smooth and he's using a Shure cartridge with a brush on it, which will definitely affect the skating behavior.

I think test records are a better way to check antiskating. This is the method recommended by Shure.
Ortofon says: "A simple recommendation for a rather precise bias: if you hear distortion in say right channel when using recommended tracking force, increase the bias scale and vice versa."
But, in any case, you will never get it perfect for every situation.

I looked at the service manual. I'm not certain, but it looks like maybe spring 52-2 is for antiskating. If not, maybe 52-1 is the one.
AntiSkate.jpg
If you think you're not getting enough, you could twist it a turn or two to tighten it up.

If I was you, I would not worry about it unless you are hearing mistracking on one channel.
I would also run the VTF at 1.4 g, which will help prevent mistracking in all cases.
Well the point is that if the arm stays put it means it’s not affected by lateral forces which would push the needle on a side of the groove. So I think the blank record method makes perfect sense.
And by the way not properly set antiskate can also push the the arm out of the record not only towards the label. So I don’t understand how one could say if it’s not being pushed to the label then it’s working. Doesn’t make any sense.

P.S. Here are the springs you mentioned:
313602B2-5254-48C1-8B0E-BBF9AAF9CD3F.jpeg
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Here’s another video:

abril
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by abril » 11 Jun 2019 20:41

Maybe yours does
Using a blank disc is irrelevant.the force is a result of friction from the sides of the stylus and the offset angle - end of.
If you dont like your DD33 get rid and stop bemoaning.
Others are perfectly happy with theirs.

chriz74
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by chriz74 » 11 Jun 2019 20:49

abril wrote:
11 Jun 2019 20:41
Maybe yours does
Using a blank disc is irrelevant.the force is a result of friction from the sides of the stylus and the offset angle - end of.
If you dont like your DD33 get rid and stop bemoaning.
Others are perfectly happy with theirs.
They are swimming in the dark.

abril
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by abril » 11 Jun 2019 20:55

#-o
So you are always right :lol:

Sunwire
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by Sunwire » 11 Jun 2019 20:59

"if the arm stays put it means it’s not affected by lateral forces which would push the needle on a side of the groove"

But the forces in a groove are not the same as the forces on a blank disc. And the forces for a Shure cartridge with a brush are very different from the forces without a brush.

You said the antiskating was "not working". If it was "not working" it would be doing nothing and the arm would zoom to the middle of the record.
Obviously, it's not doing that. So it IS working.
Is it working perfectly? Probably not, but it's difficult to test for perfect antiskating because the needs for antiskating are constantly changing as the record plays.
It looks to me like it's working good enough.

The guy in the video says the only way to set antiskating is with a blank disc. That certainly isn't true. There are non-blank test records specifically designed for setting antiskating. The HiFi News Analogue Test LP is one. The Shure test records are others. And I'm sure there are others.

The friction caused by the stylus tip on a blank disc is different from the friction caused by the edges of the stylus in a modulated groove. Shure, which did massive amounts of published research on stylus design and performance, recommends using one of their test records, not a blank disc.
I trust them more than this DJ.

chriz74
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by chriz74 » 11 Jun 2019 21:16

You are missing the point. If the arm doesn’t move to the inside or outside but stays were you put it means the only force that is being applied is the vertical force hence the stylus will stay at the center of the groove perfectly. In all the other cases there is lateral force that will push the stylus to the right or left side of the groove.

Sunwire
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by Sunwire » 11 Jun 2019 21:39

I'm not missing the point.
The force acting on the arm is caused by friction between the stylus and the record.
The friction between the stylus tip riding on a smooth surface is not the same as the friction between the edges of the stylus riding in a groove modulated by music.

Since we don't listen to blank discs or play our grooved records with the point of the stylus, this seems like not a very good method for testing antiskating adjustment, to me.
But lots of people agree with you, so I don't see any point in arguing about it anymore.

nat
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by nat » 11 Jun 2019 21:40

It's a Pmount cartridge table, and they generally had fixed tracking force and antiskating, so it's not an issue that you can't adjust it - your ability to adjust the tracking force (within a fairly modest range) is actually a sophisticated bonus.
The whole point of the Pmount system was to exclude consumer error as a major factor in how records sound. People who like to align cartridges and set tracking force, antiskate, azimuth, rake angle, damping, and so on were not the target audience, but people who simply wanted to listen to music appreciated the system. Many Pmount tables sounded very good, and yours was a pretty good one. I suspect either it really is out of whack, as you suspect, or there is some other issue in your system, perhaps as obvious as the stylus or cartridge, that you are blaming the table for. But it doesn't sound like you want advice or helpful suggestions on how to fix the problem.

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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by nat » 11 Jun 2019 21:54

As to antiskating - the blank record isn't a perfect way of setting antiskating, but it is a good starting point. Generally the results I've gotten with it have been quite close to the recommended settings, and close is as good as you will ever get with something that is always an approximation, since it is affected by groove modulation which is constantly changing.
Certainly a blank record is not the same as a groove, but in terms of the friction between the stylus and the vinyl, it may be reasonably close, since on the blank record, the point of the stylus creates a small, high pressure contact area, all of which is directed along normal to the surface and skating and antiskating are acting at 90 degrees to the downforce, and, ideally cancelling each other (I'm not going to attempt any analysis of what happens to the vectors because of vinyl deformation, but I suspect it does matter). In an actual groove, you have two vectors of force at 45 degrees to the normal, and the antiskating is at 45 degrees to each of those vectors, but increasing one and diminishing the other. How the result compares with the situation with the blank groove isn't obvious to me. I'm sure the Shure white paper covers this, but I don't remember - its been a couple of decades since I read it. Nevertheless, it seems that the practical experience of most audiophiles is actually less divergent than the opinions about why.

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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by chgc » 11 Jun 2019 22:25

The turntable may sound like s**t, but that has nothing to do with "the new knowledge…AS, VTF etc.” If one doesn’t enjoy tweaking, troubleshooting and fixing stuff, maybe vintage audio is not the best choice of hobbies (or just pay someone else to make it work).

chriz74
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Re: I’ve come to a conclusion. The Technics SL-DD33 TT sucks

Post by chriz74 » 11 Jun 2019 22:26

chgc wrote:
11 Jun 2019 22:25
The turntable may sound like s**t, but that has nothing to do with "the new knowledge…AS, VTF etc.” If one doesn’t enjoy tweaking, troubleshooting and fixing stuff, maybe vintage audio is not the best choice of hobbies (or just pay someone else to make it work).
I’ll set it on fire.

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