Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

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Ernest Studio
Australia
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Joined: 05 Sep 2019 16:19

Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by Ernest Studio » 18 Dec 2019 16:13

Hi there all, caught this turntable restoration bug from you all and now I'm in need of some help from the online community for one of my own projects.

I have a Ferguson 3006 MK2 all in one portable turntable record changer (Garrard model 50 mk1). I've cleaned all old grease underneath the unit, disassembling where needed. Also removed the cam gear to cleaning.

Just a side note too. This is my second Ferguson portable unit, same make and model too... Not sure why, but I do... I have gotten the first one fully operational as well, which I originally thought was in worse condition.

So... The turntable spins at the correct speed and tonearm moves freely. The auto feature begins, but bogs down at one small point and needs help to complete and on top of that, when the changer spindle is in, it almost jams up... it's kind of like the cam plate (I think that's the part name) is a bit off... Like it's pulling the part which activates/trips the changer pin too far back. It's been doing my head in trying to work it out too!! #-o

If anyone has had anything similar like this happen, I'd love to hear from you... Or if you have any follow up questions (sorry if I'm confusing too) I'd be more than happy to try answer them.

Thanks in advance
Craig ✌🏻

amagasakii
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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by amagasakii » 18 Dec 2019 22:23

Hey Craig,

Welcome! Just to check, have you removed the old grease and re-lubricated the roller on the pickup cam that engages with the track in the main toothed cam (and also lightly lubricated the track in the main cam)? The roller needs to spin freely.

That the spindle makes it worse makes me wonder about the release lever. Have you disconnected that from the pickup cam, cleaned and re-lubed? Same goes for the "V" track on the pickup cam.

As others taught me when I was worried about this on my SL65B, there's a few points in the auto cycle that put stress on the system. I have three autoslim models (SL65B, 40B and 2025TC), and they all bog down slightly, especially when the arm swings outward at the start of the cycle.

Finally, how's the idler wheel? With the turntable running, use your finger on the outside edge of the platter to slow it. It should put up a good fight. On my 2025TC the idler is nearly shot and it doesn't take much pressure to bring the platter to a halt.

Keep us updated!

amagasakii
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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by amagasakii » 18 Dec 2019 22:33

Illustrations might help, why not? :) Clean/lightly lubricate the underside of the release lever at the points in red, where it mates with the pickup cam (blue). The roller is in green, and pokes through the deck to the top side of the unit.

Apologies if I'm stating the obvious! Also, someone with much more experience than me should be along shortly. ;)
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DSJR
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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by DSJR » 18 Dec 2019 22:37

As an aside... When you removed the cam, did you make sure the roller on the protruding stud is free to rotate? Later cams had some black grease smeared in the cam's groove, but earlier ones didn't and this is where a good clean and 'superlube?' comes in handy... [EDIT - covered above :)]

The auto mech does have varying amounts of drag over the cycle and a supple clean idler well able to 'grip' the platter and motor pulley is important here. *Just maybe,* the mech is fine but the idler is slipping? If I'm wrong I apologise. [EDIT - also covered above while I was typing :D]

Later Autoslim mechs had refinements to the main mechanism plate attached linkages to prevent jamming and something in the back of my mind makes me think of the link that slides back and forth moving the drop 'tang' on the auto spindle and this lever's 'connection' to the main mech plate. PLEASE can other readers who know these mechs chip in and help here. [EDIT - see post above :D :D]

If you remove the platter and try rotating the cam by hand (anti-clockwise), obviously there'll be varying resistance, but is there a point (around half way?) where this resistance is really severe?

Hope the above helps - kind of...

P.S. The part covered by the red circle where the release lever connects to the main mech plate and spring #100 is where I seem to recall differences in early versions of the deck compared to later production. A while since I studied mine which I must bring down for some use!

Ernest Studio
Australia
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Joined: 05 Sep 2019 16:19

Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by Ernest Studio » 19 Dec 2019 15:00

First off thanks heaps for your replies!! Really great to hear from both of you. Also great work with the visuals πŸ‘πŸ».

Here I go at trying to reply. πŸ™ƒ

All parts mentioned have been cleaned and re lubed and I'll double check that via the manual soon as well. The roller which sits in the cam groove spins easily. The idler wheel seems fine, and I swapped the idler wheel from my working unit and same thing happens. I also swapped the cam gear as well just to see what happens... Still jams.

When I hand turn the gear cam it all moves good except for that one slightly tight (and kind of scratchy?) section, which made me think dry metal on metal contact. It's hard to describe, but when I look underneath I can see some slight buckling movements... but hard to know which part it the culprit.

One thing which I found interesting from your reply was about older units. And I wonder the age of the unit compared to my first one. They have some slight differences like, the speaker, my working one had a switch built into the turntable as well as the unit on/off switch. The one I'm working on does not have a switch on the turntable, meaning the motor is running while the unit is on. I'll have to check to see if their are any manufacturing dates on them.

I think I'll have to take a closer look at the release leaver and maybe give it a swap out from my working unit and see if that changes anything. As the jam does get worse when the stacker spindle is in. πŸ€”

I'll report back my findings and fingers crossed that I can finish this unit in time for Xmas.

Cheers
Craig.

Ps also just a side note... I went from have no record players to now having 6 in a matter of two months or so... Just happen to be all Garrard's too.

AT6 (inside a cabinet with tube amp)
100SB
2 x model 50 mk1 (portable solid-state)
1 x model 50 MK2 (portable tube)
1025 (in a mini cabinet with tube amp)

All have been brought back to life besides the one I'm working on and the 1025.
Will need to add pictures some where soon... ✌🏻

DSJR
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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by DSJR » 19 Dec 2019 23:02

This mech does have a funny bit around half way through, where any play in the 'keeper' which slides in the curved mech plate cutout as it pivots back and forth can cause the arm to 'jump' slightly just before it moves back to the record indexing position or the rest position.

My very early AT6 was supplied to me with mechanism DRY, the previous hardened grease having been completely removed but not replaced. It does or should run fine that way, but obviously not a good idea for long term wear resistance... All I'd ask is that any replacement grease isn't ladled on with a trowel as too much can be as bad as too little in the long term.

amagasakii
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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by amagasakii » 20 Dec 2019 06:45

Pictures always help me out. Once we start getting into springs, cams, spindles, and umpteen levers I start to lose track of what I'm talking about. ;)

The fact that a known working cam doesn't fix things eliminates the cam and lubrication thereof, so we're working towards the underside of the unit again. Here's a couple things to check:
  • It's unlikely, but try swapping spindles. The spindle shouldn't be lubricated, but someone may have done so anyway. Check that the pawl in the spindle moves freely.
  • Disconnect and remove the release lever and run an auto cycle; see if that improves things.
  • Check that the release lever isn't bent. Also check that there nothing is bent on the two points where it connects to the rest of the mechanism, and there are no burrs on the metal.
  • Just for a lark, if you have a muting switch, check that it's free to move as well.
Depending on what you mean by "buckling", I wouldn't be too worried. There's lots of slack in this mechanism, so I'm not too worried when parts rock back and forth on their posts. Have you checked the curved slot the roller/cam rides in? Is it flat and smooth? You could try lubricating the slot or filing it down a little, depending on where it sticks.

Nice little collection of machines you have!
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Ernest Studio
Australia
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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by Ernest Studio » 20 Dec 2019 15:14

Ok... Did some testing this evening.

I did the following.

1. Disconnect the release leaver, and it cycles perfectly... Well a lot smoother.
2. I swapped the release leaves and the problem moved to the other unit.
3. I switched the washers and cir-clip, as the washer is slightly different on each unit... Not much change if any.
4. I tightened the spring on the release leaver on the unit I'm working on as it was a bit loose and didn't reset the changer spindle and wouldn't always hold up the record which was stacked.
5. Cleaned any excess grease as mentioned above.

So would this mean my problem lays in the release leaver? I tried to inspect the leavers side by side but couldn't see anything different between them... But maybe I'm missing something.

As pain staking as they may be... I'm still enjoying it non the less. β˜ΊοΈπŸ‘πŸ»

Cheers
Craig.

DSJR
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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by DSJR » 20 Dec 2019 19:12

You carry on enjoying it all, just make sure you don't pull all your hair out while doing it :D

The photo above does show the previous release lever I think (I'm sure there's two types as not all decks have the long spring pulling the main plate alongside). All I can ask is to check the 'tang' on the long spindle to make sure it's not bent and acting too much on said release lever - I know this may contradict what you've said, but can you try a different long spindle (I can't remember if your deck used the later type, as the main platter bearing shaft and spindles were also changed early on and my AT6 bits won't work with the 60mk2 at all and vice versa).

Garrard did make a few minor revisions during this chassis life, but the springs for the deck and this spindle/main bearing change were done quite early I believe - apologies, I don't know exactly which model change this was but maybe with the AT60 family nearer the mid 60's?

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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by amagasakii » 21 Dec 2019 04:35

If I wanted machines that worked flawlessly I wouldn't be rescuing them from Salvos; the troubleshooting is half the fun, right? ;)
Ernest Studio wrote: ↑
20 Dec 2019 15:14
2. I swapped the release leaves and the problem moved to the other unit.

[…]

So would this mean my problem lays in the release leaver? I tried to inspect the leavers side by side but couldn't see anything different between them... But maybe I'm missing something.
I'd say that's a pretty safe bet. As DSJR said, you could try swapping spindles around. There's a possibility that some combination of related parts is causing your problems, but I'd spend my time seeing if you can spot what's different about the two release levers.

I've cribbed this image from another thread here on VE. This is the redesigned release lever DSJR mentioned (every unit I have has this design). I would pay attention to the condition of this slot and the one on the opposite end of the lever. If there are any nicks in or burrs on the metal, file them down with a needle file. Also, if you have this version of the return spring, make sure it's fully snapped onto the spindle, unlike in this pic. ;)

Did you move the release lever and its springs, or just the release lever? If you have this type of return spring, make sure it's not bent.
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DSJR
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Re: Garrard Model 50 mk1 automatic issue (already been cleaned and regressed)

Post by DSJR » 22 Dec 2019 21:03

You know, looking at the pic above, I'm wondering if the 'movable tang' on the auto spindle (which protrudes down and locates in the release lever) is slightly bent. However, the fact that one release lever works and the other not, is head-scratching to say the least...

The 'bend' in the release lever may allow (with EXTREME care) slight bending to shorten or lengthen the effective length by a mm either way and this *may* help - you may have to put one over the other to check if this hunch is correct.

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