Garrard Lab 80

the jewel in the crown
DasherF
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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DasherF » 27 Apr 2019 14:10

I appreciate the update, Pb...javen't gotten to mine, yet...been keeping this thread close for the "how-to's and don't's".
Anybody who has everything else to add about the table, please do...it's a "sweet young thang" I'd like to use. (They ALL are, aren't they?)
Just wanted to add...this may have sounded sarcastic (when I read it back...), but I really meant it..everybody who has anything more on this honey please do. It's all welcomed info.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DSJR » 27 Apr 2019 19:03

Pure_brew wrote:
27 Apr 2019 13:54
FYI, I'm back on the fence concerning the 20w-50 oil on the spindle bearings. "Light oil" is recommended for this TT. Now that the assembly is really clean, and with new ball bearings, it is quiet, and the speed seems constant. However it does sound a bit "tired" as if constantly slow. Run-down time of the platter is about half of what it was. So, I'm thinking there is now more hydrolic drag.
Clean off the 20-50 and try chainsaw oil (Dual people like Stihl) instead, which is stickier (won't run off), sinter-safe and some neutral grease in the ball race (Superlube?). Engine oil isn't viscous enough I'm told.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DasherF » 27 Apr 2019 19:21

Interesting you mentioned Dual-people...I was reading mrow's Dual restoration thing I got from him earlier. Yup, he recommended chain oil with its sticker property. Are his recommendations for Dual pretty much useable on most brands? (I imagine, yeah?)

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by Pure_brew » 28 Apr 2019 14:21

DSJR wrote:
27 Apr 2019 19:03
Pure_brew wrote:
27 Apr 2019 13:54
FYI, I'm back on the fence concerning the 20w-50 oil on the spindle bearings. "Light oil" is recommended for this TT. Now that the assembly is really clean, and with new ball bearings, it is quiet, and the speed seems constant. However it does sound a bit "tired" as if constantly slow. Run-down time of the platter is about half of what it was. So, I'm thinking there is now more hydrolic drag.
Clean off the 20-50 and try chainsaw oil (Dual people like Stihl) instead, which is stickier (won't run off), sinter-safe and some neutral grease in the ball race (Superlube?). Engine oil isn't viscous enough I'm told.
Thanks for the recommendation. Lube is a like a 3 bears story, too much, too little and juuuuust right.

I think I'm going to start a different thread at some point just for this bearing assembly.
The manual states in text what to do, but you have to map out the parts to remove it as some things are not obvious. Also a couple parts will drop - so photos are helpful - as always.

Someone just posted about an O-Ring and it got me thinking a bit more about another related issue. That little b****r has been really flattened out after all these years, so even if you take care to remove the whole bearing assembly as one piece- so as to not loose ball-bearings (rather than just removing the platter spindle and working from the top), bearings can still drop because the O-Ring effects the overall clearance. One dropped out during this process to my surprise.

Of course if the center spindle comes up a bit while trying to remove the platter (which happened to me), if you didn't know and you flipped the TT on it's side to work on it - then the bearings would fall out. I guess Garrard thought a pressure-fit of the center spindle was the way to go for the Lab80, but after this, I wish it had a locking screw like the Type A, etc. I figured the platter would just pop off since I had already removed it OOOPS.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DasherF » 28 Apr 2019 15:17

I look forward to seeing the new thread. Keep me in the loop!

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DSJR » 29 Apr 2019 20:30

No O ring on the Lab 80's as per the later models having one around the hub under the gear*. The Lab 80 was the last of the solid-build models using a lot of tech from the late 50's (nowt wrong with that) and the main bearing was solid and close tolerance. Too much oil will be pushed away, but the ball race may need a dab of grease - sounds odd having two kinds of lubrication, but my Lenco bearings are the same, with grease around the bottom ball which takes the weight and oil on the sleeves supporting the shaft.

This bearing had two clips attached, one an open 'wire' ring to hold the hub in place, thus preventing the balls from coming out and the other a larger C-clip to hold the platter in place (see the manuals). usually, the open ring type clip wasn't touched...

* - Do you mean a fibre washer under the lower thrust washer in the main bearing? My deck's in storage right now so I can't easily get to it, let alone dismantle the bearing. With the open ring in place, there should be a small amount of vertical play (1mm or so?) but this won't be enough to dislodge one of the thrust balls. The balls I fitted were metric size I recall and ever-so-slightly larger than the originals of which only three were there (I suspect two were actually removed rather than lost). There's still clearance in vertical free-play and the balls fit the race perfectly, so maybe the three that came with the deck were wrong...

One final thing - PLEASE don't remove the tonearm assembly unless absolutely necessary (not usually needed) as you have sixteen tiny balls which are a royal pain in the backside to replace and hold in place while holding the arm in place vertically while refitting the link underneath and tightening the locking screw. Any slight vertical movement accidentally will dislodge one of the balls at least.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DasherF » 29 Apr 2019 22:17

From my bicycle maintainence days...oh, yeah...the head tubie...bearings, top side, bearings, lower side...and gravity #-o ....
The spindle area sounds even worse (Weird Al, is that you?) with smaller bearings, still.I'll leave em be, if possible...

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by Pure_brew » 30 Apr 2019 00:59

DSJR wrote:
29 Apr 2019 20:30
No O ring on the Lab 80's as per the later models having one around the hub under the gear*. The Lab 80 was the last of the solid-build models using a lot of tech from the late 50's (nowt wrong with that) and the main bearing was solid and close tolerance. Too much oil will be pushed away, but the ball race may need a dab of grease - sounds odd having two kinds of lubrication, but my Lenco bearings are the same, with grease around the bottom ball which takes the weight and oil on the sleeves supporting the shaft.

This bearing had two clips attached, one an open 'wire' ring to hold the hub in place, thus preventing the balls from coming out and the other a larger C-clip to hold the platter in place (see the manuals). usually, the open ring type clip wasn't touched...

* - Do you mean a fibre washer under the lower thrust washer in the main bearing? My deck's in storage right now so I can't easily get to it, let alone dismantle the bearing. With the open ring in place, there should be a small amount of vertical play (1mm or so?) but this won't be enough to dislodge one of the thrust balls. The balls I fitted were metric size I recall and ever-so-slightly larger than the originals of which only three were there (I suspect two were actually removed rather than lost). There's still clearance in vertical free-play and the balls fit the race perfectly, so maybe the three that came with the deck were wrong...

One final thing - PLEASE don't remove the tonearm assembly unless absolutely necessary (not usually needed) as you have sixteen tiny balls which are a royal pain in the backside to replace and hold in place while holding the arm in place vertically while refitting the link underneath and tightening the locking screw. Any slight vertical movement accidentally will dislodge one of the balls at least.
The manual calls it a "cushion ring". Not an o-ring. It is under the lower thrust washer. Looks like a rubber 0-ring but flattened some. Not a fiber washer. Perhaps something was swapped out before. There is not break-away photo of the assembly. 3/32 bearings? Funny, now that I think about it, when I first got the TT, even after some cleaning, the center of the platter sounded a little clunky- like something was uneven in there, so maybe your onto something... doesn't do it with the 5 new ones.

Sorry DasherF, I wasn't trying to rob your thread.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DasherF » 30 Apr 2019 01:53

No prob, guys...ALL information is welcome! Add as much as needed. I can always use it...

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DSJR » 30 Apr 2019 09:44

I messed with my Lab 80mk2 plus others years ago so you lot won't need to!!

Garrard do indeed call this a 'cushion ring.' As long as it fits fairly snug around the main bearing shaft (not tight though), the thickness will be dictated by whether you can fit the clip at the top with half to a mm or so vertical free-play in the hub - hopefully A70BBen can come in here as he has loads of experience too and with the previous models using similar main bearings...

Working and lubed right, this main bearing runs quietly (to Dual standards, which I regard as a compliment), the idler has the later softer compound and the motor is incredibly well made, rotor-balanced and suspended in it's 'cage' (better than Dual). IF the trip parts are adjusted 'just right,' the arm will happily take most modern MM types tracking between 1.5 and 2g (I'm thinking AT 520, Nagaoka 110, Sumiko Pearl and Ortofon OM 10 or 20). The universal AT95e isn't good enough IMO.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by Pure_brew » 30 Apr 2019 13:11

DSJR wrote:
30 Apr 2019 09:44
I messed with my Lab 80mk2 plus others years ago so you lot won't need to!!

Garrard do indeed call this a 'cushion ring.' As long as it fits fairly snug around the main bearing shaft (not tight though), the thickness will be dictated by whether you can fit the clip at the top with half to a mm or so vertical free-play in the hub - hopefully A70BBen can come in here as he has loads of experience too and with the previous models using similar main bearings...

Working and lubed right, this main bearing runs quietly (to Dual standards, which I regard as a compliment), the idler has the later softer compound and the motor is incredibly well made, rotor-balanced and suspended in it's 'cage' (better than Dual). IF the trip parts are adjusted 'just right,' the arm will happily take most modern MM types tracking between 1.5 and 2g (I'm thinking AT 520, Nagaoka 110, Sumiko Pearl and Ortofon OM 10 or 20). The universal AT95e isn't good enough IMO.
I'm working with what is on hand for lube right now. With the bearing assembly taken apart and thoroughly cleaned (again), removing the thick motor oil and replacing with the trusty old Singer singer sewing machine oil, the entire mechanism seems to run quietly and a bit more consistently - it seems. No complaints on rumble/noise.

Keeping in mind a few things here... I did replace the old ball bearings with ceramics. Cheap enough to see "what-if".
There was some clunckiness with the old bearings, easy to spot by ear on a hand-spin or during 33 1/3.
That certainly went away with the new ball bearings, much smoother now.

However, what is strange to me is that it took the platter about 90 seconds to spin down after stop, with the clunky old bearings , not entirely cleaned, but with light oil added. With the new bearings, whether I used that thick motor oil, or the thin sewing machine oil, it now spins for like 30 seconds. Everything was taken apart and cleaned- thoroughly.

I'm thinking that with everything totally clean, with these G5 ceramics, perhaps the oil is just sticking more - creating more surface tension? I dunno - I don't think I did anything wrong here. If the playback performance was suffering because of the changes, I haven't noticed - If anything, it seems more consistent and quieter with the new bearings and sewing machine oil.

Seems to me thicker oil, and then adding grease is only going to add additional drag in this case. Might make sense to quiet down old worn mechanisms. Like my Type AII, which has not had parts replaced, quieted down with thicker oil - nearly identical mechanics to this Lab 80.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by Pure_brew » 30 Apr 2019 13:13

Changer mechanics are ok. Using an M97xe with original needle and also a Jico SAS.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by DSJR » 30 Apr 2019 15:11

Time taken for the platter to stop isn't a sonic requirement or a badge of honour (we've had all this in the Dual room here). The need is for the oil to stay in place so it can lubricate instead of run off and pool in the bottom board of the plinth!

Ceramic balls are a risk I feel. The materials of a good bearing design are selected usually to wear and run together. I have a Rega 3 'Mule deck' I bought cheap minus tonearm and a previous owner had replaced the perfectly suitable steel ball with a ceramic type, which nearly knackered the tip of the spindle shaft with a nasty 'dimple' rather more severe than the shallow one usually found. Replacing with the proper steel ball and running a few tens of hours did seem to polish the hard dimple on the spindle tip back in - the slightly smaller diameter of this ball didn't help either...

In the Lab 80 models, steel balls if properly lubricated, don't add any wear at all and the substantialthrust washers are decently polished I think (note to others that there's a top washer and lower one, the top one having a slightly larger inner diameter that the lower sleeve of the hub fits into. Too much of the wrong lubricant will make the balls slide rather than roll remember and this will cause the clunkiness as 'flats' develop on the balls...

Poster 'Spinner45' here really rates Superlube as a universal light grease? and in decks like this, *as long as all the old lube is cleaned off,* I'm sure it would do for the main bearing ball race as well as the sliding points on the mechanism. Garrard recommended sewing machine oil for bearing lubrication I remember, but I don't feel we had the alternatives available domestically back then. Chain oil (Stihl?) was recommended for closer tolerance Dual turntable bearings as a substitute for the slick smooth Renotac they used to use. i'm sure this stuff is more than good enough for the Lab 80 bearing sleeves.

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by Pure_brew » 30 Apr 2019 23:58

Good point on ceramic & wear. Easy enough to swap back as I bought both. Also a good point on rundown time. Sanity check.

😊

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Re: Garrard Lab 80

Post by Pure_brew » 01 May 2019 00:07

DasherF wrote:
30 Apr 2019 01:53
No prob, guys...ALL information is welcome! Add as much as needed. I can always use it...
Funny that someone gave me this lab 80 after you started this thread, and after I first commented on it. Strange but true! Although I did own one before and it met a sad demise about 20 years ago. All the work I put into a Garrard Type AII really helped me a lot with approaching this TT that Plus the folks here are excellent!