Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

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ivokunc
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Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by ivokunc » 22 Jan 2019 13:31

Hi! I was lucky to obtain a LAB 80 in good condition. Everything sims to be fine except the manual cueing mechanism. As I understood from the Service Manual( thank you Vinyl Engine!!) this part should move up and down by means of the cueing tab. Mine is not moving at all! It's like welded to the sleeve. What should i do to get movement of this bar?
There are a couple of other issues( a noise when the unit is shut off, and Auto trip sometimes is not operating) but this one, I think is important.
Thank you for any help or advice!!
Ivo.

vanakaru
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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by vanakaru » 22 Jan 2019 15:45

The manual operation will engage the lift mechanism when you pull the lever and hold until the circle starts. You need to unlock the tonearm as well before. If you observe the cueing lever it sits in the armrest first and when you pull the Manual tab the lever emerges and tonearm gets free to move onto the position. If it does not do it you need to deal with mechanics under the hood. The Manual tab is what operates the cueing lever like if you need to cue up the tonearm while record is playing you pull the tab - tonearm lifts up and cue lever emerges from the armrest.
Do you have MKI or MKII? Only MKII can operate "auto" with single record(without multi-record spindle).

ivokunc
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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by ivokunc » 22 Jan 2019 15:59

Thank you for the quick response!! I got the cueing bar move - it was just stuck badly because all these years I think...
No my Garrard doesn't play single in auto mode. This is a very nice machine! With Shure M44E and pretty decent needle.
The only thing as i said is - when the tonearm goes back home it press the rest base to much, but maybe this is normal??

vanakaru
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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by vanakaru » 22 Jan 2019 16:32

I would recommend to look at the mechanics. This is very complicated and sensitive one so even minor malfunction manifests as something not working. Specially look for the lubrication - it may have beed dried out becoming sticky goo - but observe the lube is grease type originally(not runny motor oil). If the dry-out has happened you need to re-lube everything. Proper way is to take all apart clean well and lube with right viscosity lube. It is rather intimidating job however so you may get on by re-lubing just the troublesome parts(clean as much you can with alcohol and q-tip and add new grease).
The arm should decent gently. If it is hard on the armrest there is something out of alignment on the back of the tonearm - there is odd construction arm-lift - or arm return mechanism.
I like this TT a lot and if it works well is pleasure to use. Witch one you have? MKI has lighted record size window and open tonearm bearing(later this was replaced with MKII arm with covered bearing though).

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by DSJR » 22 Jan 2019 17:23

The lab 80 was from the era of Garrard that ploughed through regardless - until the lubes finally turn to something like araldite glue! Fortunately for the uninitiated, these mechs may be complex looking, but they're not frail as Duals can be for 'first timers' and if you take a lot of care, they shouldn't be too difficult to work on as long as copious pictures and/or notes are taken during any stripdown, as these decks seem to be largely built in layers.

The cueing lift behind the arm is connected to a piston full of a particular kind of damping fluid. Garrard didn't say what this damping fluid actually was, but usually for many manufacturers it's a highly viscous silicon based stuff. B&O used to use what seemed like a form of vaseline for their damping fluids and of course after five or more years of little use, this stuff glued up. My Lab 80mk2 is fine still in this aspect so I'm afraid I never delved into this side too much.

One thing with these decks - and despite modifgications, I'd avoid doing this on the mk2 as well - PLEASE DON'T try to cycle the mechanism backwards, as breakages of non-replaceable parts will almost certainly occur!

The arm by the way, is very much better than some audiophools think. I see arms plus auto parts for sale occasionally and feel bad that yet another deck has been butchered in ignorance largely. Modern pickups have lowered compliance and are set for 1.75 - 2g tracking and the Lab 80 PROPERLY SERVICED and set up on the trip levers, can happily track all day at these pressures, the extra capacitance in the tonearm wiring probably helping performance here I reckon - the deck sounds so much better if something more modern than an M44 or 55E is fitted and if still around, a Sumiko Pearl is ideal I reckon and maybe, an AT520 which is a step up from the universal AT95E... The external cables could probably do with replacing now though, as unlike Dual exit cables, they weren't always that good long term.

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by ivokunc » 22 Jan 2019 18:16

Hi Dave! Thank you for detail explanation! It seems this mechanism has some problem - when the arm trip to home base it is press the base to strong. Is there any adjustment for this return movement?
Ivo.

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by ivokunc » 22 Jan 2019 18:18

Vanakaru, thanks for the help Ill start to clean up and lube this mechanism tonight.

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by DSJR » 22 Jan 2019 20:37

There's a couple of posts on Youtube showing how the auto mechanism should 'look' on the tonearm. Mine lifts the arm smartly and the arm is then swung back quickly but doesn't 'slam into' the arm rest -it comes to a halt just as it reaches the 'end-stop' and then recoils a couple of mm. The default unlocked arm position seems to be 'just off' the fully back position (hope you understand my description here) and to lock the tonearm on this one, plus a couple of others I dealt with decades ago, you need to push the arm over a mm or two into locating in its stud on the arm-rest before swinging the locking tab over.

Hope the above makes sense.
Last edited by DSJR on 22 Jan 2019 20:43, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by vanakaru » 22 Jan 2019 20:37

ivokunc wrote:
22 Jan 2019 18:16
when the arm trip to home base it is press the base too strong. Is there any adjustment for this return movement?
Not really, there must be something stuck. Look for service manuals, there are probable causes listed for specific malfunctions.
I have similar problem with unit I started working on before Christmas but had to put aside. I will be able to take this on again in few weeks time. My unit was serviced by someone to the point when he spilled the tonearm bearing balls and thought to sell it there after. He did all fresh lube but maybe did not assemble everything properly.

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by ivokunc » 23 Jan 2019 17:20

Unfortunately, I didn't get the problem with the tonearm when it reaches the armrest stem on the end of the cycle. It looks like the mechanism on the bottom of the machine and tonearm base are not aligned (?) Is it possible? Or something is broken or stuck...I noticed that the driver lug press the stem of the tonearm to the right way to much and the top of the arm stem definitely is bending for a moment. Here are some pictures how the tonearm base is looking, there is a big gap.
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vanakaru
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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by vanakaru » 23 Jan 2019 18:16

There seems to be at 1-2mm of that gap too much. Did you find the service manuals?

ivokunc
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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by ivokunc » 23 Jan 2019 19:07

Sure. I got the service manual. There is nothing about this problem. How to remove the upper part of the tonearm base? There are three small screws. Is it the way to be removed this? This upper part is shaking too much(my opinion). It needs to be more stable, i think...

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by A70BBen » 23 Jan 2019 21:09

The three small screws secure the upper arm "turret" to the metal arm "bracket/base" below it.

I am not sure what you are saying about the arm setdown on its rest. But since it is not settling in on the stylus, it doesn't matter if it sets down a bit hard. If it doesn't sit on the arm rest in proper alignment, make sure that auto setdown on a record is properly adjusted, first. If it isn't, setdown on the armrest will not be correct. On a Lab 80 Mk I you will need either an auto spindle, or to fool the mechanism into setting down on a record. Adjust the setdown point on a record... Then cycle the unit so it sets down on the armrest. If it is not setting in correct alignment, slacken the screw securing the arm rest from below, and adjust the armrest position. Tighten the screw and recheck.

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by DSJR » 23 Jan 2019 22:51

Mine gets to all three sizes of record perfectly, but this sample and a couple of old mk1's I looked at many years ago had the 'at rest' position slightly off the 'dimple-pimpel' on the underside of the the arm and the rest. To lock the arm, I have to take the arm back a mm or so so these bits locate before swinging the locking clip over. Looking at one or two on YouTube I assumed that was how they are. To even begin to adjust that out without affecting set-down position, I'd need to remove and bend the tang on the plate that deals with this (I can't remember it's name but I believe it to be the 'inter selector lever' no less).

What does trouble me is the excessive height of the tonearm bearing cradle above the outer trim as commented earlier. I remember it should be around 1mm clearance or so. Bearing in mind the bad auto working and my earlier comments about this deck powering through regardless, I wonder if the arm has been removed, all the *sixteen* tiny ball bearings lost (they go into free flight and you need spares) and replaced with the wrong size... I *think* they're 1/16" balls, but hopefully A70BBen will come to my rescue here. Sth St Services had a set of balls ready prepared for sale on eBay, but if you shop around or have a small-model hobby shop nearby, you should be able to buy them far more cheaply, or as I did online -I think my donor site was 'ballbearings.co.uk' or something similar.. I needed to replace the main bearing balls too as mine came with but three instead of five. Properly lubricated, the five are just as quiet as the previous three were...

Why am I going on like this about a fifty odd year old relic from the vinyl dark ages? because when working right, it's a charming, clanky old war-horse of a machine, with a quiet drive and a surprisingly good tonearm that deserves to be serviced and used in my opinion. So bloody tragic that Garrard didn't further develop this deck into a worthy Dual 1019 competitor (it's not far off as it is), turning the superbly made and isolated motor into an SL type, refining and updating the mechanism and further refining and tightening tolerances on the arm and trip mechanism to take 1g tracking into account as the replacement decks gradually did. Instead, Garrard's canny engineers got a surprisingly good performance from cheapening everything and making the controls and other parts rather sloppy. How an SL75 or 95 performed as well as it could is still beyond me, but it got better with the 'B' versions though and so on. Rant over!

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Re: Garrard LAB 80 Cueing Bar problem

Post by ivokunc » 24 Jan 2019 02:39

I didn't remove the upper part of the tonearm yet, so I don't know if any bearing is missing. The problem here is NOT how the tonearm landing over the tonearm rest stem. On the end of the trip cycle the arm just "want" go more to right - the mechanism is pushing it more and if I lift it just before it touches the rest stem it's going to move over it about 1/4" ! The whole arm is swing/bend on the right because of this effort.
If the position of the are is adjustable I would move it a little bit left, and then after the cycle starts the arm will finish the trip without pressing the rest stem to the right. I'm sorry if my expectation is kind of confusing...

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