Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

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Belmont
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Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Belmont » 11 Oct 2018 00:01

I recently got a freebie SL65B, that surprisingly mostly works. The turntable will mostly play at the proper speeds, and sounds quite nice with the ADC QM36(?) cartrige-maybe a bit lacking on the bass if anything. However, the tone arm seems to have some issues. Firstly, the auto cycle doesn't really want to work. I've taken out and cleaned off the grease, and put some new stuff on (not WD40, I'm not that much of an idiot), but with no luck. I understand that one has to break these things down to the bones and regrease everything, which I have not done entirely *yet*. It seems like moving the switch to "auto" should engage the cam mechanism, but it just clinks against the mechanism without pushing it into position. Secondly, the tonearm seems to stop moving at some place close to the end, but not where the lead out groove is. Nudging it beyond that (around where the tonearm meets the spindle), I can trigger the auto return mechanism, where it just goes back to the beginning of the record, or it'll occasionally return past the tonearm rest. I know the position of the overarm has something to do with it, and I haven't sussed it out yet.

Does this make sense to anyone familiar with these tables?

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Spinner45 » 11 Oct 2018 00:57

The trip pawl mechanism on the cam gear is binding due to old dried lube or dirt.
The changer needs a full overhaul, not just a part-way lube.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by DSJR » 12 Oct 2018 13:49

Unlike the Dual room here and the Dualcan site, there's no specific Garrard strip-down and overhaul procedure set in stone, so I'm afraid you're going to have to trawl through the many threads here regarding overhauling this late 'Autoslim derived' model.

Just to add that it's WELL WORTH doing, as the 65B was highly developed over the more humble changer models used in cheaper stereo sets and portables back then. ALL these decks basically clog up with dried hard-set grease and the only way to deal with it is to strip down most of it and clean off the old gunk before SPARINGLY replacing with modern stuff.

The service manuals are here and I'd also look at the SL65 previous model too, as most of it is shared. Removing the platter is the same (take huge care of the centre trim around the clip and watch the way the clip comes off) and the servicing of the cam is similar.

Just to add the main cam service... Later decks I believe, have some black gunk in the main operating groove, which I'd leave alone myself but possibly no harm in adding a smear of Super-Lube or similar (Spinner will advise). The stud pointing through from the main mech plate has a roller which MUST be free to rotate. The trip pawls on the main cam must rattle like tambourine leaves so they have little effect on the tonearm at end of side. The trip slider runs in a delrin lined groove and again, this MUST be dry and lube-free.

Underneath, it's straighforward I think once you take a good look at the greased areas. There's a partly hidden sliding plate near the overarm casting, which tells the mech if there are records stacked or not and this can seize through dried grease.

The motor and idler bearings should be lubed too with light machine oil. When dismantling the motor, do be careful of the different layers on the rotor, as these can come unstuck and motor balance is never 'quite' the same if they need to be superglued back, as many do.

Lastly for now, the main bearing... Taking note of old Duals here, I'd lubricate with chainsaw oil, which is viscous/sticky enough to cling, unlike engine oil, but is seemingly safe on the sintered sleeves in the platter hub, which the hypoid oil I used to suggest isn't always due to additives in this stuff possibly reacting with sintered bushes and sleeves.

Hope the above helps a bit. the arm if working ok can track down to around 2g safely, so cartridges like the AT91/Rega Carbon and maybe an AT/VM 95E would also be ok if the C2 carrier has the 'wedge' still to get the cartridge more level when playing single records (the arm tilts down, so the wedge corrects for this).


P.S. A very silly thing but which helps perceived refinement. This era onwards saw a rubber O ring added to the bottom of the platter hub just under the toothed bit (1.6mm cross section but I forget the diameter I'm afraid). This acts on the cam as well as the 'teeth' just above and serves to quieten the mechanism down, which it does very well. These rings turn to black goo usually, so worth replacing. The SP25 III has one, so I assume the similar 65B does too as the platters are the same I think.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Belmont » 19 Nov 2018 04:26

Okay so I pulled it out, and decided to attack the lower assemblies with grease. Just...an all out viscous assault on the inner workings. Unfortunately, my memory and photos failed me on the last leg of the reassembly, and I'm stuck unsure of how the size-selector lever (122) fits onto the pickup cam (121). It seems like it goes on top of the cam on the leftmost hole and touches the spring, but I can't seem to get it to fit well enough to secure it with the C clip. Any Help?!
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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by DSJR » 19 Nov 2018 11:35

The top pic you posted shows where this lever lies and also two springs, #120 and #164. From this distance, it kind-of goes together but without having this model to hand, it's difficult.

DON'T OVER GREASE THE MECHANISM!! A very light smear on sliding parts is enough and maybe a touch more in the sliding area of the main mech plate (where it's held in location) as this area is stressed more. This mech can run dry although it's obviously not recommended.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Belmont » 19 Nov 2018 15:42

I still have 120, and I know how it attaches onto 165, and 164 is still on 122 as it should be. I'm almost certain that the back of 121 butts up against 164 and pivots along with the cam assembly, but the two just don't fit well enough to be secured down with the c-clip. This is all wicked hard to explain over text.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Belmont » 03 Dec 2018 04:46

Okay, so tonight I managed to get it out back together again. The two do fit on top of each other, clamped down with the spring and the C clip, but it takes a LOT of force to lock it in place. I almost thought I was gonna crush the poor thing!

Unfortunately, now that it’s back together, it’s developed a newer, stranger issue. Now, in auto mode, the tonearm will glide smoothly towards the center...and then throw itself back. Then it’ll resume the old habit of sticking at some random point in the middle of the record. Depending on the mode, it’ll either be coaxed into repeating this endlessly, or just turn itself off.

https://youtu.be/p9yfyT1R3x8

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Spinner45 » 03 Dec 2018 05:39

Belmont wrote:
03 Dec 2018 04:46
Okay, so tonight I managed to get it out back together again. The two do fit on top of each other, clamped down with the spring and the C clip, but it takes a LOT of force to lock it in place. I almost thought I was gonna crush the poor thing!

Unfortunately, now that it’s back together, it’s developed a newer, stranger issue. Now, in auto mode, the tonearm will glide smoothly towards the center...and then throw itself back. Then it’ll resume the old habit of sticking at some random point in the middle of the record. Depending on the mode, it’ll either be coaxed into repeating this endlessly, or just turn itself off.

https://youtu.be/p9yfyT1R3x8
I hate to say it, but you've managed to muck up that changer real good.
While all the helpful suggestions on here are great, I think it's time to send that machine out to have it serviced.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Belmont » 03 Dec 2018 05:43

Well, in that case it’s off to the goodwill for this one! Got it for free, got a nice ADC cartridge off it, and I don’t have the time nor patience nor money to deal with it. Bit of a shame, seemed like a fun project, but it’s ultimately beyond me. Should I ever cross paths with a Garrard again, I’ll have learned my lesson...whatever it is.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by DSJR » 03 Dec 2018 21:21

Woah there...

What follows is a terrible description, but if you cycle the mech by hand, I hope you'll understand what's happening.

To Help me, could you open the SL65 service manual. I know the parts I'm about to discuss and refer to are slightly different, but the principle here is identical in the 65B as the previous SL65 and I'm using the SL65 parts as listed in that manual.

There's a 'friction link' that takes the arm back and forth during the cycle (SL65 #92). This should be pretty dry and never flooded with any lubricant - to salve Spinner here, a VERY LIGHT smear of superlube or maybe chainsaw oil may do nicely to Help free movement more than anything else. It's in the form of a kind of narrow flattened 'fork' (almost parallel fingers) with a link across the end and a kind of 'catch' near this end. Half way down this part on these later-issue decks, one of the 'fingers' of this flattened fork is lightly bowed, so in 'play' mode, the arm linkage 'stud' which connects with and through it, is as little effected by the added slight friction as possible. During the cycle, the main plate's (#93) movement, after lifting the tonearm, moves the friction plate into engaging fully with the tonearm linkage 'stud' fitted to the tonearm horizontal bearing assembly (#85), lightly locking to the stud as the arm moves back to and slightly beyond the rest and thus moving the arm back and forth. On the 'return' half of the cycle and once the arm meets the beginning of record index point, the arm stops moving in further and the friction link is disconnected as the main plate continues to move said friction link, 'unlocking' it from the tonearm linkage 'stud.' This SHOULD all but fully disconnect the arm and allow free movement.

Hope that makes sense! Now, if the arm is not moving back and forth properly, it COULD be related to the friction plate not being free to lightly pivot and also possibly binding on the tonearm bearing/link assembly. Moving the tonearm back and forth in 'neutral' mechanism mode should show you what's happening and the reason why the later Autoslim models revised this friction link plate to make their presence less felt when tracking at lower downforces - these arms in proper fettle should go to 1.75g 'just about' and the later belt driven models down to 1.5g I remember, with 2g being an excellent compromise for all of them...

Can you try this before passing the deck on please? It's worth getting right I promise you.

Spinner. No doubt you CHARGE for your services? That's fine, but when a deck has been given to you as a project and really isn't worth a huge amount even when working right, then this site and posters are here to hopefully Help restore a freebie unit to some form of good health with the minimum of cash outlay. I try to advise here for nothing (my skills with the Linn LP12 are paid for however!), as I spent a lot of my late childhood in the late 60's examining, dismantling and generally causing havoc to these things and don't want 'newbies' now doing what I did back then! The 65B was the top changer model of the Autoslim models and possibly the last changer model at this level on the chassis, as I think future models post 65B/SP25 III went single play, at least in the UK, so worth getting going again properly and if the OP does this, he may move on to a larger format Garrard (all of which also need work if not done already) and once the basic skills are honed a bit, maybe a Dual, Elac or similar more advanced model able to perform at a higher level.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Spinner45 » 03 Dec 2018 22:16

DSJR wrote:
03 Dec 2018 21:21
Woah there...

What follows is a terrible description, but if you cycle the mech by hand, I hope you'll understand what's happening.

To Help me, could you open the SL65 service manual. I know the parts I'm about to discuss and refer to are slightly different, but the principle here is identical in the 65B as the previous SL65 and I'm using the SL65 parts as listed in that manual.

There's a 'friction link' that takes the arm back and forth during the cycle (SL65 #92). This should be pretty dry and never flooded with any lubricant - to salve Spinner here, a VERY LIGHT smear of superlube or maybe chainsaw oil may do nicely to Help free movement more than anything else. It's in the form of a kind of narrow flattened 'fork' (almost parallel fingers) with a link across the end and a kind of 'catch' near this end. Half way down this part on these later-issue decks, one of the 'fingers' of this flattened fork is lightly bowed, so in 'play' mode, the arm linkage 'stud' which connects with and through it, is as little effected by the added slight friction as possible. During the cycle, the main plate's (#93) movement, after lifting the tonearm, moves the friction plate into engaging fully with the tonearm linkage 'stud' fitted to the tonearm horizontal bearing assembly (#85), lightly locking to the stud as the arm moves back to and slightly beyond the rest and thus moving the arm back and forth. On the 'return' half of the cycle and once the arm meets the beginning of record index point, the arm stops moving in further and the friction link is disconnected as the main plate continues to move said friction link, 'unlocking' it from the tonearm linkage 'stud.' This SHOULD all but fully disconnect the arm and allow free movement.

Hope that makes sense! Now, if the arm is not moving back and forth properly, it COULD be related to the friction plate not being free to lightly pivot and also possibly binding on the tonearm bearing/link assembly. Moving the tonearm back and forth in 'neutral' mechanism mode should show you what's happening and the reason why the later Autoslim models revised this friction link plate to make their presence less felt when tracking at lower downforces - these arms in proper fettle should go to 1.75g 'just about' and the later belt driven models down to 1.5g I remember, with 2g being an excellent compromise for all of them...

Can you try this before passing the deck on please? It's worth getting right I promise you.

Spinner. No doubt you CHARGE for your services? That's fine, but when a deck has been given to you as a project and really isn't worth a huge amount even when working right, then this site and posters are here to hopefully Help restore a freebie unit to some form of good health with the minimum of cash outlay. I try to advise here for nothing (my skills with the Linn LP12 are paid for however!), as I spent a lot of my late childhood in the late 60's examining, dismantling and generally causing havoc to these things and don't want 'newbies' now doing what I did back then! The 65B was the top changer model of the Autoslim models and possibly the last changer model at this level on the chassis, as I think future models post 65B/SP25 III went single play, at least in the UK, so worth getting going again properly and if the OP does this, he may move on to a larger format Garrard (all of which also need work if not done already) and once the basic skills are honed a bit, maybe a Dual, Elac or similar more advanced model able to perform at a higher level.
Regardless, when a changer like that is showing bizzare behavior due to improper assembly, any number of things could be at fault.
And these, of course, are not identifiable in the service manuals, or diagnosed across the internet - one can only speculate, and I'm not going there.
It'll turn into an endless thread of speculation, as you've already added to.

There's no way of knowing if a part is accidentally bent out of shape.
Or if part A is over or mistakenly placed under part B.
There's no way of knowing if a "c" clip is missing, or a washer is misplaced.
There's no way to determine if a spring is improperly inserted.
The list is endless, and only sends people into a confusion of "what ifs".

These things can be rectified on a qualified service bench.
And no, I'm not for hire.
After spending 45 years fixing other people's broken stuff, I'm enjoying my retirement.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Belmont » 04 Dec 2018 02:19

Well, I held off out of laziness, and frankly I'm going to ignore your advice to throw it out. I nursed a Pioneer PLL1000 back to life from an abandoned parts unit, and I've done basic repair work on a fair number of old turntables before. And who's to say someone else out there doesn't run into the exact same problem days, weeks, months, years, decades, centuries down the line? I've been helped by obscure posts from the late '90s before, and I reckon it's my duty to Help add to this insanely huge knowledge base known as the internet. Master techs are getting fewer and fewer, and it's ultimately up to the layperson to learn how to repair this stuff, should they so choose to own it. The "endless speculation" will end when the problem has been sourced and fixed, and hopefully that information can be passed along to anyone else with this issue in the future. I reckon that my error was in oiling something I shouldn't have, so I'll have to take it apart again *sigh* and clean it all out again *sigh*.

I do believe the trip-pawl is also slightly gunked up, even after working it numerous times. I can shake the removable bit and move it around, but the bit it pivots on is not so free? This might well have been the original problem all along, and I was too ignorant to try and fix it.

DJSR hits the nail on the head. My first turntable purchase, a few years ago, was almost an SL95 at a local antique shop. They wanted $200, which was way too steep for my then-high-schooler budget, but I must have spent a good couple minutes looking at that thing. The beautiful all-wood case that ensconced the machine, that wooden tonearm, the nice polished metal (plastic?) switches, all seemed so very elegant and unique to me. Certainly a touch more sophisticated than my brother's ATPL120, and definitely a punch or two above my Crosley knockoff. Had I pulled that trigger, I would honestly still have it today, and probably be a fair bit richer and happier! Instead, I wound up getting a junky Sony USB table that died within a year or two, and then when I finally did get some proper money, I searched high and low for a local Dual ("The best", according to my former vinyl-junkie dad), but instead opted for a new ATLP120 which has proved...dependable, if not inspiring. I've also had a couple other 'tables on the side, usually to fix and flip for fun and profit (which is how I lucked in my PLL1000, which I dearly love). This was the latest in that shuffle, and I reckoned I could at least use it to spin my stacks of dollar-bin LP's that really just wouldn't feel right being played on the Pioneer. I initially had a lovely PL15D for that purpose, but a friend wanted a turntable for his birthday, and so of course I ran back home to grab it. Like a week later, this Garrard pops up for free, I remembered that old SL95 and decided to get a taste of what it would've been like. Once this one's fixed up and I've taken the time to appreciate it, or should an SL95 or 1019 pop up locally for a nice price, then it'll be out the door for this and the ATLP120.

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by DSJR » 04 Dec 2018 19:09

Spinner, I'll continue speculating from a few thousand miles away if you don't mind and happy to do this if it saves one of the better basic models Garrard made - ok?

Look fella's, the 65B is WORTH messing with to get it right. Had it been a 1025 or 2025 model, I'm not sure I'd have been quite as enthusiastic about it.

The Autoslim mechanism is pretty basic and fairly simple I believe and parts, even this friction lever acting on the tonearm, are difficult to bend severely out of shape I reckon, although if the little bronze? clip at the end is misplaced or distorted, I suspect the twin 'fingers' may be pushed enough out of shape/alignment to act badly on the 'stud' that runs between and around them. Garrard also added spring loading to some of the moving parts as the years went on and these should be checked for free movement and sometimes the helical springs need to be one way round as against the opposite to work properly (I have an original AT6 and it's fascinating to compare the details with later examples from ten years on). This is where the previous SL65 manual may Help as it has most of the mechanism refinements - but not the friction lever update. A service manual for the SP25 III or IV may Help here and there, although some 'changer' parts are missing and there's a big change to the main operating control and its linkages which may confuse.

If all the sliding and rotating parts are doing what they should, the cam can be rotated by hand anti-clockwise without any binding although there will be parts with slightly more resistance here and there. The heavy black lube in the groove did Help a lot and black residue in the bottom of the plinth isn't this back grease leeching out, but in fact I believe it to be the remains of an O ring on the bottom of the platter hub which is there just under the geared bit to quieten and refine the noise when cycling. This was done in the 25 III so I suspect the 65B and age-related models are the same as most of the basic mech and drive is shared between them. Hopefully, Superlube won't run and will lubricate the roller while cycling.

The 'trip pawls' need to be removed completely from the cam and the pivot hole cleaned out with solvent (I use an aerosol type). Same for the pawls themselves, spraying onto a 'kitchen' tissue and wiping thoroughly. Usually on reassembly, these pawls will be loose and rattly and in my experience, these being loose won't affect cycling at 78rpm by chattering into engagement at this higher speed.

Basically, a well behaved 65B tonearm should, when balanced for 'zero' tracking weight and anti-skate set to zero too (check the little spring is doing it's thing correctly and not binding on the tonearm's bearing bracket), should be free enough to move into the disc centre with no binding or stiction. Garrard greased the horizontal bearings but today, this should still be no more than a slight extra 'drag' rather than gluing the bearings up. tapping the balanced out headshell down should give some totally free up-down movement although it'll never be like a precision balance as Duals are.. To this end, make sure the tonearm wires don't foul anywhere as they run down the back of the bearing bracket and out to the terminal block.

I repeat, IT'S ALL GOOD FUN and a wonderful experience on these tough old decks on your way to something far more delicate. The SL95B is the 95 version to look at as some refinements were made over the earlier 95 model - and if it's in the more space-age 'Module' plinth with hinged lid plus side 'stay' to hold it up, the better as the deck should have some of the later refinements to the trip device fitted. The Zero 100 in idler form took it further (I think later related SL decks inherited a lot of the Zero 100 mech refinements) and this should be looked at as a conversation piece as much as anything else. Only THEN look at a classic Dual, the usual suspects having rather more delicate parts and needing much love and care in servicing, which is worth it as so many top cartridges up to a grand or so can be fitted to many of them...

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by DSJR » 04 Dec 2018 19:43

P.S. This thread may confuse as it's about the single play but related SP25 III, but A70BBen has posted some great pics oF the underside of the mechanism of this single play model. If you look, you'll see the 'friction lever' in its earlier form (with one 'finger not bowing out as it does in later examples) 'pointing' to the bottom right of the pictures. The spring loading on one of the parts on the lower left side of the main mechanism plate and the mention of the same auto part shared with the 65B I believe, but actuated by the stacking overarm rather than the main operating lever as the 25 III onwards is. Hopefully these pics won't confuse...

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=108381

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Re: Freebie SL65B, Auto Issues, Frozen Tonearm

Post by Belmont » 06 Dec 2018 16:32

Popping it open and just cleaning off #121 didn’t seem to do the trick, leading me to believe I musta oiled something else that I shouldn’t have. I’ll dig back into it next week, taking the entire assembly apart, methodically cleaning and regreasing everything I can, and then get back to y’all. From looking at the undercarriage while it’s cycling, it looks like the size selector mechanism isn’t acting quite right (might have oiled it when it might have needed that resistance?), and thus takes the arm for a longer ride than necessary. And then the trip pawl is still slightly stuck at the very end, causing the arm to not want to freely travel all the way in, hence why it gets stuck? If I have any time today, I’ll try and look at it again, but complete disassembly is going to have to wait a while.

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