the home of the turntable

Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

the jewel in the crown

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby DSJR » 13 Jan 2018 12:13

Leave any black grease in the running groove underneath as it doesn't creep and aids smooth cycling. the trip pawls must be free to rattle too..
DSJR
long player
long player
 
Posts: 2184
Images: 48
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:29
Location: Suffolk

United Kingdom

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 13 Jan 2018 12:27

DSJR wrote:They (the SL65B is a changer version of the SP25 III but with 'better' motor) were pretty good and in the UK, ruled until the Pioneer PL12-D came along and blew away all before it at this price level.

Higher end Garrards are rare locally. Every few months or so a console system shows up for sale, but it's usually a 2025, Unimech, or insanely overpriced. (Most of the time it's some hateful BSR from the plastic platter era.)

I recently missed out on a console system with an SL72B (I was waiting for it to come down in price because the bias weight was stuck), so when I saw the neglected SL65B, I jumped.

DSJR wrote:The 'top O ring' fits around the rotating platter hub directly under the geared part (I have a similar one pictured in my 'gallery' on a Zero 100 platter to show where it goes).

Can you send me a link? The only platter pics I can see in your gallery are for Dual 1214 and 1216.

DSJR wrote:If it's to be used for single records, see if you can fabricate a wedge as Garrard supplied, which fits between cartridge and the C2 carrier.

I plan on using the Garrard as a changer, my Dual as the single deck, and my Yamaha as the backup to the Dual. The Garrard's job is to be the party deck; it'll stand up to more abuse than the other two ever could!
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 13 Jan 2018 12:31

DSJR wrote:Leave any black grease in the running groove underneath as it doesn't creep and aids smooth cycling. the trip pawls must be free to rattle too..


Not even a trace of black grease to be found. I made sure the trip pawl/pivot rattled. :)
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 13 Jan 2018 14:10

Stupid question:

Having freed up and re-lubed the topside, this thing sounds like a tractor when it cycles: "thuck………tuckatuckatuckatuckatuckatuckaTHUNKtuckatuckatuckatuckatuckaclick".

Is this because the cam post is loose and the gears aren't meshing correctly? Or is this just one of the many charms of old Garrards?

Or am I just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic with this one?
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby A70BBen » 14 Jan 2018 07:31

Could be. Tighten up the post on which the main gear/cam rotates. If it is loose, the gears won't mesh properly
A70BBen
senior member
senior member
 
Posts: 721
Joined: 16 Feb 2014 22:56

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby DSJR » 14 Jan 2018 11:46

The mechanism is hideously noisy if the cam and platter don't mesh properly.

Regards the platter O ring, keep cycling through the pics in my gallery and you'll see the Zero 100 platter hub with O ring on it-

gallery/image_page.php?album_id=32&image_id=39019&sk=t&sd=d&st=0

I seem to remember without checking it's 13mm x 1.6mm but the 65B might well be different..
DSJR
long player
long player
 
Posts: 2184
Images: 48
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:29
Location: Suffolk

United Kingdom

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 15 Jan 2018 03:37

A70BBen wrote:Could be. Tighten up the post on which the main gear/cam rotates. If it is loose, the gears won't mesh properly

That'll be the project this weekend or next. The post really isn't that loose, so I'm hoping it won't be too much effort.
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 15 Jan 2018 03:44

DSJR wrote:The mechanism is hideously noisy if the cam and platter don't mesh properly.

Regards the platter O ring, keep cycling through the pics in my gallery and you'll see the Zero 100 platter hub with O ring on it-

gallery/image_page.php?album_id=32&image_id=39019&sk=t&sd=d&st=0

I seem to remember without checking it's 13mm x 1.6mm but the 65B might well be different..

Ah, thanks for the link. I was looking through your personal gallery, not the Garrard one.

I thought the top o ring sat between the bearing and the platter, not on the hub itself. This makes more sense, and may also explain why the mechanism is noisy.
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby Spinner45 » 15 Jan 2018 04:00

amagasakii wrote:
DSJR wrote:The mechanism is hideously noisy if the cam and platter don't mesh properly.

Regards the platter O ring, keep cycling through the pics in my gallery and you'll see the Zero 100 platter hub with O ring on it-

gallery/image_page.php?album_id=32&image_id=39019&sk=t&sd=d&st=0

I seem to remember without checking it's 13mm x 1.6mm but the 65B might well be different..

Ah, thanks for the link. I was looking through your personal gallery, not the Garrard one.

I thought the top o ring sat between the bearing and the platter, not on the hub itself. This makes more sense, and may also explain why the mechanism is noisy.


The pin that rides inside the cam gear groove is actually a roller bearing.
In all these old changers (Garrard/BSR) that roller is seized up.
This results in more friction/stress and even slowdown/stalling during the change cycle.
That roller should be flushed and lubed with light oil to allow it to spin freely inside the can groove.
Spinner45
long player
long player
 
Posts: 1315
Joined: 01 Mar 2017 18:21

United States of America

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 15 Jan 2018 05:45

Spinner45 wrote:The pin that rides inside the cam gear groove is actually a roller bearing.
In all these old changers (Garrard/BSR) that roller is seized up.
This results in more friction/stress and even slowdown/stalling during the change cycle.
That roller should be flushed and lubed with light oil to allow it to spin freely inside the can groove.

Thank you! I checked that tonight and while it's not seized, it's certainly quite sticky. On the list for when I do the full tear-down and re-lubrication. (For now I've just done a quick clean and lube on the top side.)
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 15 Jan 2018 07:15

Progress!

What a difference one little o ring makes, geez. I now understand that the o ring rides along the flat edge at the bottom of the cam and must provide a bit of pressure so the gears don't crash together as loudly. I'm guessing the cam on my Dual and spindle gear on my Yamaha are plastic to quiet down the metal-on-metal noise?

Having correct o rings under the bearing assembly and on the platter hub have eliminated the most worrisome scraping sounds I was hearing before. Only at 78 RPM can I hear a quieter "cssh-cssh-cssh" sound; not as quiet as I'd like, but far better than before. I assume I can quiet this down further by putting in a more appropriate grease; I've used Superlube temporarily.

Another stupid question: The platter is not level. As it spins, you can see it rise and fall a millimetre or so. I've watched some YouTube videos of other Garrards, and it seems like this is to be expected. Is this to be expected?
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 15 Jan 2018 11:00

This afternoon I'd like a quick fix project, so I plan on re-damping the cueing mechanism. Per the SP-25 Mk III manual, I remove the tone arm, then the pivot screw and bracket, then push the lifting platform up from underneath, re-damp the spindle, and put everything back together.

The very next sentence, the manual goes on to say that I will instead have much better results if I remove the pickup cam and extract the spindle from underneath.

Do I understand this correctly? The lifting platform simply sits on top of the lifting spindle, which runs inside a bore. Underneath, a spring pushes the lifting platform up. The cam on the end of the cueing lever connects with a tab at the end of lifting spindle. When you move the cueing lever to "down" this releases tension on the spring, causing it to pull the lifting spindle downwards. When you move the cueing lever to "up", the cam engages the tab on the lifting spindle, pulling it upwards and tensioning the spring. The damping fluid, obviously, slows the travel of the lifting spindle in its bore, thus making everything move nice and, well, damped.

If I remove the pickup cam, I can remove the lifting spring and washer, pull the lifting spindle out, clean, apply damping fluid, and reassemble?
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby DSJR » 15 Jan 2018 15:50

The 'damped' cueing devices on these (I know of two versions at least) weren't that wonderful I remember, so don't expect perfection on these in all honesty. The silicon fluid should 'creep' into position (and hopefully not creep out)..

As for bearing noise, these decks aren't as quiet as the large format Garrards, which had an enclosed bearing race as per the auto Duals, but as long as there's grease on the ball races and a sinter-safe viscous oil on the main spindle (so it doesn't run away), there's not much else to do.

Platter-edge up-down movement comes with the breed I fear and in this era, platter rock too. I believe the SP25 IV onwards had a full bronze sleeve in the platter bearing hub as did the Zero 100 and its siblings from then on and this does minimise rocking (my first AP76 from 1972 was awful in almost every way but the current one's delightful).
DSJR
long player
long player
 
Posts: 2184
Images: 48
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:29
Location: Suffolk

United Kingdom

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby amagasakii » 16 Jan 2018 01:26

DSJR wrote:The 'damped' cueing devices on these (I know of two versions at least) weren't that wonderful I remember, so don't expect perfection on these in all honesty. The silicon fluid should 'creep' into position (and hopefully not creep out)..

It comes down pretty quickly at the moment, so a minor improvement is still an improvement as far as I'm concerned.

DSJR wrote:As for bearing noise, these decks aren't as quiet as the large format Garrards, which had an enclosed bearing race as per the auto Duals, but as long as there's grease on the ball races and a sinter-safe viscous oil on the main spindle (so it doesn't run away), there's not much else to do.

Platter-edge up-down movement comes with the breed I fear and in this era, platter rock too. I believe the SP25 IV onwards had a full bronze sleeve in the platter bearing hub as did the Zero 100 and its siblings from then on and this does minimise rocking (my first AP76 from 1972 was awful in almost every way but the current one's delightful).

I don't think there's much I can do about it. There's certainly some visible play between the top of the spindle and the hub, but seems to balance itself out when the platter is spinning. I used a plastic pry tool to gently apply some upward pressure to the underside of the platter while it was spinning; looks like it's just slightly warped.
amagasakii
member
member
 
Posts: 52
Images: 11
Joined: 18 Jun 2017 04:14

Canada

Re: Thrift store SL-65B -- Initial questions

Postby DSJR » 16 Jan 2018 01:57

Here's where lack of metallurgy competence comes in. I don't know how the aluminium top platter of the 65B and 25 III was formed, whether milled from solid, simply cast and then machined (probably I suspect) or stamped out (not sure if aluminium can be prepared this way). Certainly, some castings needed to be 'rested' after major machining as they warped and in fact my earlier solid cast Lab 80mk2 platter shows signs of machining a little too soon as some warping before final machining is in evidence as well as further creeping after - had I owned this deck when newish I'd have complained and in fact the mat has varying thickness over its circumference almost deliberately to work some of this off so the stylus sees as flat a record as possible ;) Your 65B might have been a little bit better, but I really don't know. Garrard did take care with the machining of the cast inner bearing hub everything's riveted? to (screwed to on the superior models) but despite the 'SL' suffix and better tonearm, it's still basically a posh Autoslim changer, so some allowances have to be made.

Again, things got better as the next few years went on and tolerances did seem to get tighter - I don't know how long the 65B was around - it didn't really sell in the UK as the SP25 III did. The belt driven models with cast platters were very good if my 86SB is anything to go by (if only I could get rid of the motor 'drone' through the speakers caused I believe by partly collapsed motor grommets...)
DSJR
long player
long player
 
Posts: 2184
Images: 48
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 21:29
Location: Suffolk

United Kingdom

PreviousNext

Return to Garrard