Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

the jewel in the crown
Post Reply
A70BBen
senior member
senior member
Posts: 850
Joined: 16 Feb 2014 21:56

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by A70BBen » 06 Dec 2019 08:40

If you don't need the isolation from footfalls, try placing the Zero 100 on heavy furniture and blocking up the chassis in its plinth on small blocks of wood to support it without spring suspension. Sometimes that helps with rumble.

You do not have to lift the chassis totally off the springs, but enough to provide solid coupling from chassis to plinth and then to the heavy furniture substrate. In the past this has worked on some idler drives for me (Dual 1218, Garrard Type A). Effectiveness varies with each installation, I have not found a way to predict!

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 09 Dec 2019 07:23

Thanks for good advice, A70BBen! I'll try this when I start the rumble-hunt.

On question: If I choose to go down the the path of replacing stuff, which other Garrard models can be used as donors for:
Motor?
Idler?
Bearing?

DSJR
long player
long player
Wales
Posts: 3104
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 20:29
Location: Suffolk

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 09 Dec 2019 21:35

SL72B/75-75B/95-95B and motor wise, I think the 86SB and 100SB's too. The SL motor in general is compatible as long as you can replace the pulley. The mk1 motors were deeper underneath as the rotor sat on a ball bearing. The series 2 type was slimmer and arguably slightly cheaper to produce, but worked just fine long term (until the rotor parts come unstuck in some). Very late motors had the pulleys sweated on and the bottom screening shield plate disappeared. Starting with the Zero I believe, Garrard changed two of the motor mounting grommets for softer types (lighter grey colour) and these improved isolation but can sag with age as my 86SB deck did until I bought another motor with a fresher set of grommets. I have to agree with A70BBen that lightly coupling the sprung deck to the plinth thereby all but bypassing the springs seems to silence the 'drone' in the background in quiet passages that absolutely wasn't there when the deck was new. UK Reviews of the time all said how much 'quieter' the 100SB was over the previous idler model.

The idler I believe is the same in all the Autoslims and larger format decks above (also the AP75/76/96). The Unimech idler is different as is the Lab 80 and predecessors.

The main bearing is pretty much the same as all Garrard's later large format idler decks I think, but these rarely are the main cause of intrusive noise as long as the races are clean and greased and the shaft is lubed with a more viscous oil than light machine oil (Dual owners now seem to use good quality chainsaw oil as it doesn't run away as light oils do).

You're ignoring me when I say rumbles and noise are part of the 'idler charm.' I don't mind really, but I do believe I'm right. Just spend some time with a well set up Thorens 150 or a 160 without main bearing slop as some have, or a surviving mid 70's direct drive like a Technics SL1600/1700/1800 and you'll see - *and hear* - what I mean...

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 10 Dec 2019 09:39

Thanks for replying DSJR! Yes I understand rumble is part of the idler charm. But I just want to make sure it's as low it can be by doing what I can. And I like to tinker :-).
And for comparison the old stamped platter Lenco B52 has a lower rumble level than the Zero right now. If I could get it down to that I would be more than happy.

Note: recently swapped the Boston acoustic A60:s to a pair of Sentec SP77 speakers (Swedish 70's build) and also diy:ed a dual layer rubbercork/bitumen mat for the Zero and rumble is down. Still have good bass though.

DSJR
long player
long player
Wales
Posts: 3104
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 20:29
Location: Suffolk

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 10 Dec 2019 16:43

The B52 WILL BE quieter through the stylus and to be honest, you'll be doing fundamental redesign work to even begin to approach this level from a Garrard (even a Dual 1229 may suffer and my 1019 doesn't begin to come close right now!).

It's a fun conversation piece, but I swear the Zero 100 was nowhere near state of the art when it was introduced and was never really intended to be.

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 11 Dec 2019 16:26

I hear you. But maybe I can get it down just a wee bit lower :-)...

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 11 Dec 2019 19:13

Maybe too early for a victory cigar. But did some light sanding of the idler (maybe the refurb guy was sloppy) and also polished the pulley with some really fine wet sanding paper.
Listening to the result right now (some Miles Davis with a lot of quiet parts) and cannot here that rumble at my normal volume setting and listening position any more! Of course it's there if I stick my ears close to the speakers.
But right now Im a happy Zero guy!

Wonder if that homemade mat also is helping...? Did try some other mats (rubber, felt and even double) before without any improvement. But this one maybe isolates better?

Hope the improvement is permanent. Who knows what other surprises this old fellow has in store :D ...

DSJR
long player
long player
Wales
Posts: 3104
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 20:29
Location: Suffolk

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 11 Dec 2019 22:04

Well done..

Sorry to bang on about it, but 'vinyl' does have noise and some older records have rumble in the cutting lathe added. Often on a good pressing, you can hear venue noise (as well as tape noise if it's an analogue recording) coming in and out each track, but I'm sure you know all that anyway ;)

Garrards often respond well to thin cork mats (on top of the original) and I think you can still get thin ones which would be suitable. I rather like the original Zero 100 mat I must say, as it supports over most of the record - I'm kind of the opinion right now that the centre of the record needs support and not just the edge as many decks (Duals!) did back then! Again, my Zero 100 mat is still supple enough.

The UK sourced Garrards I have usually still had supple idler tyres although the Lab 80mk2 idler had a flat on it (regular bump-bump-bump noise in the background) which responded to a quick spin in a drill chuck and wet-n-dry to buff the edge a little (don't try this on Duals really, as the edges are radiused slightly). Some do seem to slip slightly in other climates though, but after 'dressing,' I'd ask to make sure the driving edge is smooth with no 'lumps.'

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 21 Jan 2020 15:51

Well, things change and so does the turntables in our home.
I got a hold of this Lenco L75 that was supposed to be a base for a long term custom build while having the Zero as a daily driver. But now when i have restored the basics on the L75 in stock form and have done some test listening I´m so impressed with what I´m hearing, so I´ll kep the Lenco in the main rig and do a (temporary) retirement of the Zero 100.
The L75 is just so pleasing to listen to. I mean I really like the Zero (if nothing else for it cool looks) and how it sounds too, but I just can´t put the Lenco away.

Plan right now is to really try to get the rumble down on the Zero. I know it may be a loosing battle but I got som ideas I want to try. After hearing the almost nonexisting background noise of the Lenco it will be hard to listen to the Zero again otherwise.
But also, If and when I can rig a secondary system, the Zero of course will be a good part of that setup. I´m gonna want to be able to eye that cool looks and goolden buttons!

DSJR
long player
long player
Wales
Posts: 3104
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 20:29
Location: Suffolk

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 21 Jan 2020 21:05

I'll be selling my 601 if you'd like another for the turntable museum.....

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 22 Jan 2020 11:04

Don't think Mrs T68 would approve...

DSJR
long player
long player
Wales
Posts: 3104
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 20:29
Location: Suffolk

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 22 Jan 2020 15:09

Back to the rumble. Is it only there through the speakers when the idler is connected or might it be in the bearing?

I'm not sure the idler is ever fully retracted from the platter at least in 'stop' mode, although it obviously is from the motor pulley. If you temporarily remove the idler, making note of the top and bottom washers, spin the platter by hand, have a listen to see if the annoying noises are bearing related, or purely in the drive. These motors may not look solidly made, but Garrard made a herculean effort to balance the rotors and minimise vibration so you'd barely know the motor's running at all, but it'd help to see the main cause of any undue noises. The two grey grommets are nearest the main spindle and the original black coloured grommet is furthest away. Rubber grommets of different hardness were a reliable cheaper way than the Lenco and top Garrard springs, but if they're going off that would minimise their effect. Motor vibration could mean dry bearings or bearings in need of centring as well as the rotor parts not glued back as they were originally, causing vibration not there originally. Idler bearings are usually ok in my experience, but we've discussed the rubber dressing and cleaning which can be an issue.

I've discovered what should be a good main bearing lubricant which is safe on sintered main bearings. The oil Dual used to use isn't available easily now and I was recommended a slideway oil (Mobil Vactra ISO 68) in addition to the recommendation of chainsaw oil. I'm told it has similar viscosity to the Dual stuff so won't run away but it's not so thick it'd cause the balls in the race to slide instead of roll... Large bottle just arrived so I need to decant some into a smaller dropper type to make it easy to use.

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 24 Jan 2020 05:41

Good points there, DSJR, thanks!
My investigation so far tells me that the main bearing is quiet (have done as you suggested with removing idler and handspin while listening to any noises). So Im pretty sure that the noise comes from the motor and/or idler.
Will work from there. Probably take a week or two before I can get to it. Right now I got a receiver with a bad left channel on the operation table. If I get that thing going it will maybe be a nice match with the Zero in another setup :-).

T68
senior member
senior member
Sweden
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Jul 2018 18:41

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by T68 » 24 Jan 2020 11:57

Here's the reciever. An old Danish Eltra (in a Swedish Centrum case). Purdy, right?
IMG_20191111_191856_1.jpg
(75.51000000000001 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
IMG_20191111_175849.jpg
(155.26 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

DSJR
long player
long player
Wales
Posts: 3104
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 20:29
Location: Suffolk

Re: Just won a Zero 100s - let the fun (?) begin!

Post by DSJR » 24 Jan 2020 15:49

We never saw these.. The Beomaster 1000 was close in looks, albeit with tab switches.

Post Reply