Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

the thin end of the wedge
Post Reply
RScheuer
Posts: 4
Joined: 27 Nov 2002 20:26
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by RScheuer » 06 Dec 2002 23:29

I have a AR-XA turntable that I'm in the process of bringing back to life. In 1981 or so I replaced the factory tonearm with a Grace G-707MKII.  Hi-End salesmen tell me that this can't possibly be any good - that I should consider a new turntable or a medium mass tonearm  (or something else they can sell me) at the very least, but I can remember getting excellent sound with the Grace and an Adcom High Output M/C (long gone). Can anybody recommend cartridge that would be a good match for this rig? PS  I notice lots of info about the Grace here, so Grace owners, speak up!  I will appreciate it!

Ken
member
member
Posts: 139
Joined: 23 Sep 2002 04:17
Location: Perth - Western Australia

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by Ken » 07 Dec 2002 01:02

At the risk of offending any “High End Dealersâ€� IMO there are some good ones and some not so good, however we should not forget that they are exactly that, a “Dealerâ€�. They are there to sell you something, the more they can get you to spend the better off they become. There are better Turntables than the AR and, there are better Arms than the Grace 707. At current costs, to beat them you would have to spend big money. Neither of them were “poor qualityâ€� or “poor soundingâ€� items in their day and the are not “poorâ€� sounding items in current times. When looking for a replacement cartridge, start by checking out Ortophon, Goldring, or Grado. Not forgetting that the current Shure V15 and Dynavector 10X are still top class units. Find a dealer that would be willing to set up and service the AR/Grace combo. Then just sit back and marvel at what you have been missing.    

RScheuer
Posts: 4
Joined: 27 Nov 2002 20:26
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by RScheuer » 07 Dec 2002 05:48

Thanks Ken: I know the AR is pretty basic - it was the first piece of 'high end' I ever bought (used for $50, when the asking price was $109 new and included the dreaded Shure M91ED, over-priced at for-free), but I love its basic simplicity and face it, I'm sentimental. But I digress - I like Grados, even the cheaper ones sound great, I have one on there now, in fact. But I recall reading somewhere that Grados and the AR don't necessarily mesh - the AR uses a 24 pole synchronous clock motor that isn't uh, SHIELDED to any real degree, and I heard that Grados are susceptable to hum. I've used the V-15 before, liked it for awhile but ultimately found it a bit dull and lacking inner detail.  When I got the G-707, low-mass tonearms were popular and there were lots of cartridges out there.  I do know that nowadays medium mass tone arms are preferred, probably lower resonance and stiffer.   So you're saying these cartridges are okay with a low-mass arm?  The Shure should be - it's big deal is high compliance and low tracking force.  I'm not kidding myself, this is a budget rig.  I can't really see spending more than $200 for something like this.  I like a cartridge that can handle transients and  is  good at recovering ambient detail without too much etch.

michaelwnz
senior member
senior member
Posts: 640
Joined: 22 Oct 2002 05:24

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by michaelwnz » 07 Dec 2002 12:55

The AR-XA was a classic ! If well fettled it should still produce good sound today. Likewise the Grace 707MkII. I wouldn't worry too much about it's low mass. Back in 1984 Ken Kessler wrote a paean to this under-rated arm, praising it as a truly universal arm that would work with nearly any cartridge you care to fit to it. He tried everything from the  Shure V15 mm/Garrott Decca/Grado to the Supex/ Denon/even a Koetsu m/c ! . As well as Grace's own cartridges. When I used one waaay back (on a Rega 3 , then a Linn LP12) I used various mm's; the Elite 500/700 , Grace F9-E , a Technics and several mc's ; Supex 900 , Elite MCP-555 and yes, even my first Koetsu Black while waiting for my Ittok to arrive. While not optimal, the Grace/Koetsu did make lots of good quality music. In keeping to an acceptable budget I would try some of the entry level offerings from Audio Technica, Denon, Shure, Grado, Sumiko or maybe even Benz-Micro, who have a nice little mc, the MC-20E that sells for $175USD. Regards.

Roy_Johnson
junior member
junior member
Posts: 23
Joined: 21 Oct 2002 03:54

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by Roy_Johnson » 08 Dec 2002 13:29

Hi, Because of this arm's low mass, it would be nice to have a high compliance cartrdge.  In the old days, that would have been an ADC XLM variation, a Sonus Blue or Goldring 900. Today that would be the "Music Maker" phono cartridge, although hum from the motor might be a problem- you would have to contact the "Music Maker's" designer- Len Gregory. It is more expensive than the Shure V-15. Another unit would be a current Goldring model having a compliance spec of above 20, or a Dynavector Karat model. If you wish to use a medium-compliance cartridge, of which there are so very many, you would be wise to add several grams of mass in the headshell. What you should hear is that there is better definition from the lower midrange on down, compared to not having the extra mass. I happen to believe that a high-compliance design philosophy gives the best sound, if all other characteristics were made equal. Adjusting the ratio between the compliance and the effective moving mass is exactly the same as selecting a proper-sized sealed box for a given woofer:  you are after maximum damping with maximum amplitude flatness- which would then be a second-order Butterworth roll-off at 7-10Hz for the ideal arm/cartridge (-3dB at those frequencies, and dead-flat above 15-20Hz). One uses a test record with sweep frequencies for this. On a scope, the amplitude of the 7Hz to 20Hz range should never peak above the 20Hz to 100Hz range. Then you are tuned closely enough, via the extra-mass technique, or the "right" cartridge choice. If the mass is too low, and/or the compliance too stiff (too low in numerical value), then the arm/cartridge system is underdamped, and of course ski-jumps off warps. More important to having good sound is that this mis-aligned pair has greater phase shift in the lows, and rings below 30Hz- which disturbs imaging, tracking, and the stability of the phono preamp power supply- which makes the lows sound too full, or wooly. I still own this Grace arm, mounted on an old Technics SL-1100 for the moment. Best of luck! Roy

RScheuer
Posts: 4
Joined: 27 Nov 2002 20:26
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by RScheuer » 11 Dec 2002 20:33

I just checked in with Grado - they told me no to the AR (too much motor noise) and no to the Grace (MUCH too light) which they seemed to like even less than the AR.   That is pretty much what I expected from them, and I got to love their honesty.  Right now I have an old NAD 1600 preamp/tuner which has both MC and MM phono sections so I could go MC,  but I think Roy is right, high compliance is what this rig would be best suited for.  I've been looking up Goldring, which I remember as being a lovely sounding thing back in the day - there is a relatively inexpensive model called the 1006 that would appear to fit the compliance specs Roy mentioned.  Any word about this model?

JaS
engine room
engine room
Posts: 11262
Joined: 12 Feb 2002 16:32

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by JaS » 11 Dec 2002 22:13

The 1006 has the same body as the 1042 and sounds similar but less refined. It tracks well and can be upgraded by the fitting of any of the other 1000 series styli. I use a 1006 stylus for parties as its cheaper to replace than the 1042 in the event of mishap, but really its much better than that. I've never had a problem with hum on the 1000 series either, but it must be said they can sound a little mechanical in the wrong setup. Regards JaS

RScheuer
Posts: 4
Joined: 27 Nov 2002 20:26
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by RScheuer » 13 Dec 2002 00:26

It looks I can get a Goldring 1006 from Mantra/UK for about 76 GBP, which is about USD $121.  That's very much in the ballpark of what I was hoping for, and the fact that upgrading is a matter of swapping styli, suits me fine.  The other contender is the Shure V15 Vmx- but aside from being much more expensive, from what I've readit sounds worse than the Type IV, which I replaced for being somewhat stale sounding in about 1980. Anyway, if anyone has a MC or a more expensive MM that they have their eye on and hasof these Goldrings to sell let me know - mayby we can help each other! Thanks to everyone here.  The AR will be singing shortly!

cgb
member
member
Posts: 127
Joined: 03 May 2002 00:00
Location: Berlin

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by cgb » 22 Dec 2002 23:35

Hi, as I have recently bought a G-707 at ebay, I have two questions: First problem: it came without tonearm cable, and it requires a MALE 5-Pole plug, opposed to the commonly used female plags. Until now I wasn't able to find one. Second: how do I tell the difference between a Mk1 and a MK2. What's the difference anyway? Thanks, Christoph

Audiophilewannabe
member
member
Posts: 107
Joined: 15 Nov 2005 22:07

Re: Suggested cartridge match for G-707 Tonearm

Post by Audiophilewannabe » 20 Jan 2006 19:26

cgb wrote:Second: how do I tell the difference between a Mk1 and a MK2. What's the difference anyway? Thanks, Christoph
Yes ive always wondered that as well , never known which one, mine was :oops:

audioorigami
long player
long player
Scotland
Posts: 1181
Joined: 29 Jan 2005 12:53
Location: scotland
Contact:

Post by audioorigami » 21 Jan 2006 12:04

i have a faulty grace 707 here for the weekend

i tryed my MC high output denon DL110 (costs about $100) and it sounds wonderful :D
just like the arm/cart combo i had over 30 years ago

so for very little cash u can have a mc cart that works in the arm and no hum :shock:

the grace came with a lead plate in the headshell...i removed this and the dl110 is not heavy enuff for the wieght to work...i had to add a tiny bit of wieght to the headshell

also the unit i have does not accuratly measure the cart weight (u know the wee scale that turns round) ...i checked it with my own scales and it was heavery than it said on the grace scale

hope that helps
j7

lew302202
junior member
junior member
Posts: 24
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 14:39
Location: SW Florida

Grace 707

Post by lew302202 » 30 Jan 2006 17:32

Sorry for the late and long post!!

cgb asked "How do I tell the difference between a MK1 and a Mk2?
what's the difference?"

The Mk2 has incorporated two significant improvements; a decoupled
counterweight & a more sophisticated bearing system. There is a two part
cone mechanism made of a solid base material with the addition of
a-case hardened bearing cone tip. The increased tip hardnes reduces friction and minimizes wear from normal use.

I presently have a Pickering XVS 3000 cart and sometime back another poster replied to a question I had asked about a replacement cart,that the
Audio-Technica AT440ML would be a decent choice.

Fred

Post Reply