A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

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SteveAR77-XB
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A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by SteveAR77-XB » 07 Oct 2015 19:57

I posted my questions at the end of an old thread and only got one reply (for which I am very grateful), so I thought I'd try again with new thread. Hope that's OK.

I have an A&R P77 cartridge which needs a new stylus, and have seen the following styli all cited in various threads on this forum as compatible replacements:

Shure N91-ED
Jico SAS Stylus-1
Philips GP-406 MkIII

I have also been informed that the following cartridges appear to use the same body as the P77 and their styli might also fit:

Sumiko Oyster
LP Gear DEFT
LP Gear DEFT2

I can't afford the Jico at the moment so I ordered the much cheaper Shure N91-ED. I knew the brass shank is much longer than on the P77, and was reasonably confident it would fit because others have said so.

However, when I tried to fit the stylus, it would not go all the way in. I pushed as hard as I dare but it would not budge any further. Unfortunately, in haste I then tried to remove it and (perhaps unsurprisingly), the plastic part came away from the shank. The stylus worked not fully pushed in and continued to work without the plastic bit.

I would be very interested to know how other people have got the N91-ED to fit. I bought the A&R with an E77 stylus and upgraded to the P77, but assume the C77, E77 and P77 all came with the same body. I also wonder how anybody has got the Jico SAS Stylus-1 or Philips GP-406 MkIII to fit as they both seem to have similar length shanks to the N91-ED. I'm now glad I couldn't afford the SAS in light of my experience!

I would also be interested to know if the Sumiko Oyster or DEFT/DEFT2 styli would fit the P77.

By the way, I decided to risk attempting to remove the N91-ED with pliers. When I got it out the end of the shank was slightly distorted, suggesting that there was simply not enough room for the P77 to accomodate it. Of course, I destroyed the sylus in the process, so I would warn anybody who has got a N91-ED or SAS to fit by the use of some force that getting it out again in one piece might be a problem.

Any comments or suggestions would be gratfully received. Thanks.

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by Neilsan » 08 Oct 2015 06:45

I have the A&R P77 and the Garrott P77.
The Jico SAS Stylus-1 fits both cartridges.And they both sound marvelous.
Probably me that replied last time!!

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by SteveAR77-XB » 08 Oct 2015 10:38

Neilsan wrote:I have the A&R P77 and the Garrott P77.
The Jico SAS Stylus-1 fits both cartridges.And they both sound marvelous.
Probably me that replied last time!!
Thanks for replying. No, it wasn't you, it was DeepEnd who advised me to have my P77 re-tipped by the Expert Stylus Company.

Can I ask whether the shank on the Jico is longer than the P77's, and was any force required to fit it? Also, where did you get the Jico? I am beginning to wonder if two versions are available, one with a short shank and the other with a long one. Either that or some foreign object has found its way into my cartridge, thus reducing the depth.

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by Pikey » 08 Oct 2015 21:09

I think the advice about using an N91-ED was wrong in the first place, it's the N91-E stylus you need to fit the A&R body.
As I understand it the N91-ED is compatible with the M97xE body though.

It's a bit of a lottery mixing different bits and pieces like this, but I can confirm absolutely that the JICO SAS fits the A&R body and works really well!

There's only one way to get a JICO ... http://www.jico-stylus.com/product_info ... ts_id=1468 ... although they do appear on ebay sometimes.

Other cartridges similar to the A&R apparently ... Mission Solitaire, Coral 555/666 and Shelter 201.

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by SteveAR77-XB » 08 Oct 2015 23:01

Pikey wrote:I think the advice about using an N91-ED was wrong in the first place, it's the N91-E stylus you need to fit the A&R body.
Now I'm really confused! The N91ED and N91E seem identical and I found this (admittedly very old) reply to a query on the Shure customer help site:

"As of December 2000, the N91ED replacement stylus is available from Shure. It is a direct replacement for the N91E."

I really want a Jico anyway, but am nervous after my experience with the N91-ED because others have said some force is required to fit it.

Thanks for the reply though.

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by Pikey » 09 Oct 2015 01:03

I understand your confusion ..

I remember when I first got my A&R up and running after quite a bit of online searching around I thought I'd better check it out with a cheapie n91 stylus from seller 'stereoneedleslady' over a ebay ... this one in fact ... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHURE-HI-TRAC ... 2ee4bd1faf ... it fitted well and proved the cartridge was still good!

Later, when I needed a new one I went for a different seller, can't remember why now though, anyway it was this stylus from 'andydeals' ... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHURE-HI-TRAC ... 5643f55f5b ... sadly this one didn't fit at all, the metal 'shank' was way too big and too long! , and yet according to the ads they should have been the same!

I suppose the second one could have been in the wrong box? , Who knows? , anyhow I ended up biting the bullet and going for the JICO SAS and still happily using it today!

I'm sure I read somewhere that the n91-ed fits the m97xe ... ??

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by SteveAR77-XB » 09 Oct 2015 13:10

Pikey wrote:
I thought I'd better check it out with a cheapie n91 stylus from seller 'stereoneedleslady' over a ebay ... this one in fact ... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SHURE-HI-TRAC ... 2ee4bd1faf ... it fitted well and proved the cartridge was still good!
I bought the N91-ED to check my cartridge out ........ from the same seller! It was this one though:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131547518529? ... EBIDX%3AIT

I thought it was the right one because I recall the manufacturer, Pfanstiehl, being mentioned somewhere. They make good quality stylii apparently.

I think the key to the difference is the description: the good one you bought is described as "SHURE HI TRACK replacement copy", suggesting perhaps that it is copy of the earlier N91-E rather than the N91-ED.

Anyway, I'm going to try the one you bought because I need to satisfy myself that the P77 works properly after the way I mistreated it. There seem to be UK/EU sellers but they're more expensive than "stereoneedleslady".

Many thanks for your help, I really didn't want to spend too much money just to test the P77. If all goes well I might investigate having the P77 re-tipped first because I believe import charges and VAT will be payable on the Jico SAS.

Thanks again.

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by DeepEnd » 09 Oct 2015 13:53

I found a note of someone who appears to have tried Arcam,Sumiko, Garrott, etc bodies and stylii. Have a look at the sixth post in the following

http://www.avforums.co.za/index.php?topic=34392.0

However I have a known (good) E77 stylus that has been inspected by the people who are fitting a Gyger2 tip to my P78 cantilever. If you just want to check your body out I can lend this to you but I will not have it back for few weeks. Whereabouts are you?

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by SteveAR77-XB » 09 Oct 2015 20:51

DeepEnd wrote:I found a note of someone who appears to have tried Arcam,Sumiko, Garrott, etc bodies and stylii. Have a look at the sixth post in the following

http://www.avforums.co.za/index.php?topic=34392.0
Very interesting. I have obviously not fully appreciated the difference in performance between conical, elliptical and parobolic styli. I have not used my turntable in anger for years (I bought my last vinyl album in 1989). I bought an E77 in about 1985 which my toddler son broke, and replaced that with a P77 which he also broke. I may also have had a C77 at some point, I can't remember. The thing is I don't remember noticing a great difference, which I now realise is because I never set up my AR77-XB turntable properly, in particular the vertical tracking angle. You can't adjust the tone arm height, so it never came to my attention.
DeepEnd wrote: However I have a known (good) E77 stylus that has been inspected by the people who are fitting a Gyger2 tip to my P78 cantilever. If you just want to check your body out I can lend this to you but I will not have it back for few weeks. Whereabouts are you?
That's very kind of you but I've already ordered what I hope is the correct version of the N91-E. It's elliptical so I hope it will be a resonable test against the Ortofon 510 MkIII I bought to replace the P77, which I don't like and is the main reason I've neglected my vinyl. And I know about VTA now!

Are you having your P78 re-tipped by the Expert Stylus Company? I might consider that for my P77, although the cantilever is broken. I'm in Bristol by the way.

Thank you for your reply and kind offer.

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by DeepEnd » 09 Oct 2015 21:47

My P78 is being re-tipped by Northwest Analogue (as perhaps the only people in the UK with access to FG stylii). The boron cantilever allows the use of a smaller part reducing the tip mass even further.

My P77 will be going to ESCo for a Paratrace.

My E77 will remain "as is".

I may purchase a Garrott P77i as well as these appear to have smaller aluminium cantilever with a sophisticated stylus.

The P77Mg performed really well in my Planar 3 and took the rather smooth E77 to a new level of refinement of bass and treble whilst retaining the fluid midrange. I intend to see if the P78/P77i can take this even further.

It will also allow a true comparison of different cantilevers/stylii on the same body (that Garrott still use for their high end, £750, ruby cantilevered, FG Signature tipped cartridge).

If I can find away of getting good recordings I might post the results of my experiments for others to review.

I suppose for completeness I should also try and find a C77, Oyster, M75ED, M91, DEFT, DEFT2, Pearl etc but unless someone is prepared to lend me the sylii it could get expensive even before we look at ruby cantilevers!!

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by SteveAR77-XB » 29 Oct 2015 19:44

Pikey and DeepEnd:

Just thought I'd let you know I got the correct Shure N91E stylus from "stereoneedleslady" (aka "Carole's Needles") and it works fine in my A&R P77 cartridge.

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by Pikey » 29 Oct 2015 21:14

That's good news Steve!

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by DeepEnd » 30 Oct 2015 17:10

Nice to know and thanks for taking the time to update us!!

Still waiting for my re-tip :cry:

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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by enzedone » 26 Jun 2019 04:16

Hello there,

I wonder if this thread is still active?
Anyway I would like to confirm the identity of this cartridge and also find a Stylus for it thanks.

Is it the Black P77?
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Re: A&R P77: which stylus will really fit?

Post by DeepEnd » 26 Jun 2019 08:13

Not particularly active but “yes” congratulations on finding the upgraded Magnesium bodied version of the A&R #77 Cartridge rather than the more common plastic bodied version.

Ones I have personally tried are:-

Obviously the original C77, E77, P77 and P78 styli.

The Shure N91E (not ED) replacements will fit (and this is what most companies who list a replacement offer) but the VTA isn’t quite right and is a bonded elliptical tip (originals were all nude types).

Phillips 406 MkIII replacement- again a bonded elliptical tip which worked better in mine than the Shure.

Not tried by me

Jico Stylus 1, this is nude MicroLine tip on a Boron cantilever and is now available again (couldn’t get them for a while). Many people have tried this with success.

Garrott P77i stylus- again a nude extended contact type but aluminium cantilever similar to original types.

There is a possibility that the new Sumiko range may also fit it would not like to guarantee that.

The LP gear DEFT stylus I tried was too loose to be useable.

The above range cover a large range of costs from £15 to £300 so a lot depends on your budget/rest of the system but the original styli outperform the Shure and Phillips styli so would be my recommendation. I was told that occasionally ESCo can supply “as new” styli but you would have to speak to them directly.

I can vouch for their work as I have two styli that have been reworked (one just a retip and one recantilevered and tip).

Another forum member bought my N91E and 406MkIII styli so I now just have an E77, P77, P78 retipped with FG2 and a P77 with sapphire cantilever and ultra low mass Paratrace tip this last one, which at £160, is outstanding value (my FG2 retip on Boron cantilever P78 was over £300 probably needs a lower effective mass arm than the Rega to be as good).

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