Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

the thin end of the wedge
KentT
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by KentT » 02 Jun 2015 02:37

A good move. Your arm may not be up to tracking it at the light end. SME 3009 could handle one at 1 gram in optimum order then.

tubesaurus
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by tubesaurus » 09 Jun 2015 09:28

hello!
for finding answers for shure M44 I have still open questions.
1.Is the output voltage dependent on the needle or on the body?
2. I found an old M44MG from 1964 on a Dual 1009, the needle needs replacement.
can I use a new M44-7 or a M44G to fit in the old M44MG?
The Dual 1009 does not have anti-skating. Thats ok because I want to use it for playing mostly 70th-80th 7" 45 singles. I read in the Shure set up instruction, that the system can be positioned in different methods, hifi set up( not good for 1009 because of missing anti skating), standard DJ set up, unorthodox DJ setup, and extra skip resistance for DJ`s.
Which method can you recommend from our opinion for my 1009 with mostly single play in changer mode? It will play 10 singles with the AS9 .
best regards from Germany
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BMRR
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by BMRR » 09 Jun 2015 14:29

1. Needle determines output voltage. The two bodies are internally the same.
2. Yes.
3. Align the cartridge according to turntable manufacturer's directions.

tubesaurus
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by tubesaurus » 10 Jun 2015 07:12

BMRR , thank you!

MariHarris

Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by MariHarris » 29 Nov 2015 21:26

I haven't had a chance to get one of the M44-7's. Hoping to pick one up soon and see how the bass response is.

Boltman92124
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by Boltman92124 » 17 May 2016 17:25

Can the M44G stylus be replaced?

Thanks!

BMRR
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by BMRR » 17 May 2016 17:48

Yes.

KentT
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by KentT » 16 Dec 2016 02:33

eddie edirol wrote:I know the Shure M44-7 and M44-G well, I have used them for DJing since 1999. I still have quite a few of them lying around. As far as I know, the M44-7 has been specially made for competition DJs, heavy scratch use. The sound is much louder, cantilevers are stiffened for heavy use. Now when I put my N-44-G stylus on the cart, its much lower. I do not know whether or not the carts are made with the same care as in the 70s, I doubt they sound as good as the original carts did. But I'm not confident that the newly made M-44 series sound good enough for listening, although that is up to the beholder. These carts are widely used on the vestax straight arm turntable in the other turntable thread, and turned away from the record in the headshell to avoid groove skipping. Plenty of other non dj carts to choose from with the Shure brand.
The Shure M 44-7 and M 44-G were not built as competition scratch DJ cartridges, they were first conceived in late 1963 as audiophile cartridges and launched in 1964 by the way. I have used this cartridge since 1972 in some form as a young 8 year old broadcast operator onwards. Simple history for you.

PaulKehayas
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by PaulKehayas » 16 Dec 2016 14:11

Could someone with an old M44 from the 60s please compare it to a later USA made one and also to a current made one?
A 60s model has a white shroud.

eddie edirol
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by eddie edirol » 16 Dec 2016 16:10

KentT wrote:
The Shure M 44-7 and M 44-G were not built as competition scratch DJ cartridges, they were first conceived in late 1963 as audiophile cartridges and launched in 1964 by the way. I have used this cartridge since 1972 in some form as a young 8 year old broadcast operator onwards. Simple history for you.
I do know that they werent built as DJ carts, scratch DJs started using them in the early 90s. Were they a low cost option back in the day originally?
What I wonder is, are the carts manufactured with the same care now as they were in '64? Can the new version of the carts hold up to the sound quality of the originals? Maybe with a NOS stylus? I know that Shure realized that the scratch DJs were not looking for sound quality, only skip resistance. So in that regard, the new M44-7 stylus is not for listening purposes whatsoever. A comparison test is in order here methinks.

I need to pull off my ortofon and try a 44-G and listen to it through my Tube Pre and see what I get.

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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by BMRR » 16 Dec 2016 17:56

eddie edirol wrote:Were they a low cost option back in the day originally?
I think they were more of a midrange/upper range option when Shure first introduced them. Eventually they were moved lower in the product lineup as Shure came out with higher-end cartridges.

Also keep in mind that the original Shure V15 was nothing more than an M44 with a nicer mounting block and a 2x7 elliptical diamond. You can get virtually identical sound/performance today by putting a JICO 3x7 elliptical in any M44 body.

eddie edirol wrote:What I wonder is, are the carts manufactured with the same care now as they were in '64?
Probably not, but I think that can be said of Shure's entire product line – cartridges, microphones, etc. That doesn't mean the products are bad, but I can tell you that quality control is not what it was before they moved to Mexico in the early '80s. It's still possible to get an excellent Shure product but you might have to inspect it a little more carefully, and sometimes you might need to try a couple before you get a good copy. Again this applies to their whole product lineup.
eddie edirol wrote:Can the new version of the carts hold up to the sound quality of the originals? Maybe with a NOS stylus?
I'd be wary of a NOS stylus, especially if you're trying to find one from the Made in USA era. You'd be using something that had been in storage (good storage? bad storage?) for at least 35 years, possibly much longer. That's not a big deal with a cartridge body but it IS a big deal with a stylus, especially if it wasn't stored properly. The rubber suspension can harden, shrink, crack, split, etc.
eddie edirol wrote: I know that Shure realized that the scratch DJs were not looking for sound quality, only skip resistance. So in that regard, the new M44-7 stylus is not for listening purposes whatsoever.
I'm not sure if I agree with this. These cartridges were popular in discos, radio stations, and even jukeboxes, from the '70s all the way up to the present time. Skip resistance and audio quality are both important factors in those applications. DJs in discos and clubs who are spinning, not scratching, are actually very particular about audio quality, and the same is true of radio DJs.

Are these cartridges the last word in audio quality? Absolutely not! But that's true of ANY cartridge using a stylus with a .7mil spherical diamond and a fat cantilever. I don't think there's anything inherent to the M44 bodies or the M44 styli that makes them automatically worse than other MM carts with the same type of diamond and a similarly rugged cantilever. So, for example, some valid comparisons might be:

M44-7 vs. Audio-Technica AT10
M44-7 vs. Pickering 380
M44-7 vs. Ortofon Elektro S

M44G vs. Stanton 500AL
M44G vs. Audio-Technica AT91
M44G vs. Ortofon DJ S
eddie edirol wrote: A comparison test is in order here methinks.
I definitely agree with that. :D The challenge is figuring out a way to make it a fair comparison. Comparing a 40 year old stylus to a current-production stylus isn't fair; you'd also need to eliminate as many variables as possible: use the same headshell, the same lead wires, etc.; use preamp load settings as recommended by each cart's manufacturer; compare styli that have a similar number of hours of use (not fair to compare a brand new stylus to a stylus that has 100 hours of use; the one with 100 hours might sound better because it has loosened up).

Albus
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by Albus » 16 Dec 2016 18:41

Good evening,
Shure M44G, M44-7, I measured my Models as follows (Left/Right):
1. M44G, Manual 2000: 662 / 671 Ohm, 752 / 761 mH
2. M44G, Manual 2011: 658 / 665 Ohm, 634 / 703 mH (!)
3. M44-7, Manual 2012: 672 / 669 Ohm, 715 / 766 mH (!) The Output is very high.
DMM is UNI-T UT 603.
Greatings
Albus

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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by josephazannieri » 16 Dec 2016 19:39

Yo students of M44-7 and M-44G:

I use an M-44-7 in a Thorens TP13A arm on a Garrard 301 to play rough LP's and I also use a 3 mil stylus for 78's. I track it at 3 grams and I have modified the Thorens arm with extra anti-skate weights to permit proper anti skate with the 3 grams tracking force.

The M-44-7 has HUGE output, about 10 mv. I am grateful for the extra output because I use a passive equalizer box so that I can get the curves I need for 78's and old LP's. In addition, the big stylus hooks up well with large grooves on the 78's, allowing me to get clear solid highs, to the extent that they are there on 78's. Also tracks well on 45's which also give lots of output because of additional speed over LP's.

My experience with the M-44-7 and N3D combination has been very satisfactory. The M44 is loud sounding, and also sounds like the bass and treble are turned up a bit in comparison with the V-15-V I have in my other turntable, but playing old rock'n'roll records, it's perfect.

And good luck from that loud old guy,

Joe Z.

eddie edirol
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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by eddie edirol » 20 Dec 2016 07:22

BMRR wrote:
eddie edirol wrote:
eddie edirol wrote: I know that Shure realized that the scratch DJs were not looking for sound quality, only skip resistance. So in that regard, the new M44-7 stylus is not for listening purposes whatsoever.
I'm not sure if I agree with this. These cartridges were popular in discos, radio stations, and even jukeboxes, from the '70s all the way up to the present time. Skip resistance and audio quality are both important factors in those applications. DJs in discos and clubs who are spinning, not scratching, are actually very particular about audio quality, and the same is true of radio DJs.
As far as I know, when performance turntablism started growing by leaps and bounds, when everyone else that DJ'd had all but gotten rid of their records and deck sets, and when much of the niche market that is audiophiles emigrated to CDs, it was the performance DJs in the mid 90s that grew the trend of using M44-7s and got Shure to really bring the M44 back. (Or at least the version that the DJs are using, was marketed to DJs, there doesnt seem to be much else on the site now) Now I dont know if Shure originally had a 7 stylus that was this high output that the scratch DJs all use (and still do!). The DJs were so prevalent to Shure that they still sponsor all the DJ competitions, and 5 out of 8 carts on the site have "scratching and mixing" in the description. Which still makes me question the build quality of the innards.

Ive seen alot of DJs in clubs (before PC Vinyl software) and anyone that wasnt a scratch DJ was not using M44-7s. They were using ortofons when they were werent scratching, but mixing and were worried about sound quality. Never seen any club djs using M44-7s. It was all about the concordes for any years, and it still is. I think theres also alot of new DJs out there that dont know how to install a cartridge too that own the ortofons.

Now though, M44-&s made a bit of a comeback when guys are DJing with 45 only sets. They cant use the Ortofons because they dig too deep, the M44-7s and SC35C are the choices because they are gentler on the 45s, and even styrene.

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Re: Shure M44-7 vs. M44G

Post by BMRR » 22 Dec 2016 03:18

eddie edirol wrote:Now I dont know if Shure originally had a 7 stylus that was this high output that the scratch DJs all use (and still do!).
They did. It was always a .7mil spherical with an output of 9mV going all the way back to the original from the '60s.

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