Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

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larphred
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Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by larphred » 26 Jan 2013 05:57

Newbie here. Just mounted a used Blue point special on my non-modified SL-1200 and it is a bit overly bright. I have no idea which protractor to use to set up the cartridge in the headshell. Has anybody had experience with this setup? I am running through the MC input and was also wondering which capacitance loading would be the most appropriate--or is that merely set by ear?
Thanks for any input.

clearaudiolover
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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by clearaudiolover » 26 Jan 2013 10:08

have you tried playing with the arm height adjustment (VTA). The Sumiko needs a little bit of negative VTA.

larphred
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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by larphred » 26 Jan 2013 17:06

I leveled it. Do you mean to drop the arm at the pivot/base?
Thx.

Finger Painter

Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by Finger Painter » 26 Jan 2013 17:38

The Blue Point Specials are high output MC's and hence need to be run through the MM input, loading at 47k Ohms.

You are probably experiencing far too much gain.

larphred
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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by larphred » 26 Jan 2013 19:06

Yeah, I know they are high voltage MCs, but I have a MM cartridge hooked up to the MM input and was hoping the high output MC would work in the MC input. The gain is nowhere near saturated with the Blue Point running through the MC input.

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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by hugo casassanta » 26 Jan 2013 20:14

Have you tried feeding it directly on the MM input? Did you hear any tonal differences by doing so?

Devil Doc
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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by Devil Doc » 26 Jan 2013 22:20

47K ohms. Less than 200 pF

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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by cafe latte » 26 Jan 2013 23:44

larphred wrote:Yeah, I know they are high voltage MCs, but I have a MM cartridge hooked up to the MM input and was hoping the high output MC would work in the MC input. The gain is nowhere near saturated with the Blue Point running through the MC input.
As Satanfriendly said there will be too much gain though. I only have one input and three turntables and it is only a minor irritation to swap leads when I want to switch turntables.
Regards
Chris

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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by Brianev » 27 Jan 2013 01:45

Hi, got one of those, they play best tail down slightly, but, they are very bright by nature
Brian

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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by clearaudiolover » 27 Jan 2013 09:00

larphred wrote:I leveled it. Do you mean to drop the arm at the pivot/base?
Thx.
yes a bit. My Sumiko blackbird is also a bit bright so that is the nature of Sumiko. But it's not irritating.

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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by pivot » 27 Jan 2013 15:13

As others have said.

I had one back when they were current. They:

1) Are slightly bright in balance

and..

2) really need to plugged into a normal MM input to get the correct loading and gain.

With the loading of a MC input the frequency balance of the cartridge will be changed AND/OR you will be overloading the circuit with too much gain.

larphred
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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by larphred » 27 Jan 2013 19:22

Thanks guys. Very helpful forum. I tried a "tail-down" approach to the arm and it significantly improved the sound. It slightly reduced brightness, but significantly improved the bottom end.
My next job will be to try the MM input. I shall report back after trying that.

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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by clearaudiolover » 28 Jan 2013 21:21

larphred wrote:Thanks guys. Very helpful forum. I tried a "tail-down" approach to the arm and it significantly improved the sound. It slightly reduced brightness, but significantly improved the bottom end.
My next job will be to try the MM input. I shall report back after trying that.
have you tried the MM input? that is the right way to connect!

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Re: Sumiko Blue Point Special on Technics Sl-1200

Post by tazdevl35 » 27 May 2019 00:57

If you are running the SL1200 and Nude Sumiko BPS / Evo II or III it's very similar to my Blackbird HO on SL1210 M5G, As for experience, I've owned 3 since 2003, no other carts on this table. I set the 1210 up with the VTA (raise the arm in the rear) to the number 4 setting. Use the auxiliary counterweight in the tail of the VTF adjuster, set to 2.0 grams. Set Anti-Skating to 2/3 of the VTF, or about 1.34 at 2 grams VTF. Azimuth is a litter tricky, I use a coffee straw form McDonalds on the face of the cart and twist the headsheel till level. There are protractors here in VE you can look up for the 1200 and 1210 stock arms. I think I used Baerwald for the 1200 following the directions to the letter with the cantilever and body parallel to the grids, arm describing exactly across the printed arc, lining up to the 3 points of alignment. Download and print at 1-1 ratio, measuring the A-A and B-B lines to insure the page is to scale. Tape to a junk LP to make adjustments then follow the instructions, easy peasy lemon squeezy

It takes the BPS and Blackbird about 5 hours to settle in, another 30-50 to totally break in, loosen up and groove. Don't be frustrated, and leave the adjustments alone. You will have to raise the arm .25 to 1.00 total compensating for the suspension wire relaxing, lowering the VTA. If you really want the sound to pop, pick up a USP Microscope with measuring software, and make sure your SRA (Stylus Rake Angle) has the stylus tip riding at 92* once the suspension is all settled in. The Dr Feickert Fozgometer and test LP helps get the Azimuth set straight up dead nuts. A quality VTF scale is inexpensive and essential, 2.0 grams VTF is perfect. Make sure you recheck after any VTF or SRA adjustments.

Up to 5 hours are when the major changes in audio characteristics take place. Up to 50 hours is a slower more gradual change in sonic character. As others said, the HOMC design dictates the load set to 47k ohms if you have a load adjustment on your phono stage. 44-46 db of gain is about the same level with the 2.5mv output as the 34-36db gain setting is with a 4-5mv MM or moving iron cartridge. Never allow the total capacitance from the cart, arm wiring, turntable interconnects to the phono stage to exceed 200 picofarads all in. around 100 is optimal, though some compain the cart is too hot in the mid-highs, 200 strikes a better balance across the frequency range. I have mine set to 160 altogether, the tonal balance is warm mids, with deep (not bloated or resonating) gut punching bass, and crystalline clear detailed highs, overall response from 10hz to 50Khz. Separation is >35dc @ 1Khx, Balance<0.5db @ 1Khz.

I built my own phono stages, both based on the award winning CNC Phono Stage, one from the plans and part list on AudioKarma, the other a full kit from Muffsy. Built in a few hours in a custom Black Anodised Aluminum mini-case featuring adjustments for Load, Capacitance and Gain, it's what the DR ordered for a great sounding quiet Phono Stage. All In including the Wal-Wart, B0930 Case, power supply and RIAA spec phono stage, using custom double layer PC boards and very high quality components (kit even includes enough high quality solder and detailed instructions to guide even the most novice builder), well under 200$ all in. The online support, photos and documentation are superb. The sound? Better than the built in Phono Stage inmy McIntosh MX135 and as good as those in my C2500 tube pre with high quality adjustable MM and MC stages.

The high mass of the Technics SL1200 and SL1210 arm is a perfect match for the 9.6 Grams BPS/EVOII and Blackbird, using a lightweight adjustable 1/2 headshell. Make sure to install the auxiliary 10 gram VTF counterweight, allowing the counterweight to be as close the arms' Gimballed pivot points. The aux headshell isn't needed. Use the lightest headshell and highest quality lowest capacitance headshell wires available. This combination is magical, what I believe to be all things analog to those big into vinyl. I get plenty of gain from the phono stage set at 44 db, providing over 700 wpc anywhere between 4-16 ohms, Mc preamp (set to 85 out of 99 percent passing) thru 2 McIntosh mono-blocks out of Mc XRT-22 speakers.

Most often folks are shocked at the black background, devoid of hum or hiss at all but the highest levels with no vinyl playing. The Stylus digs deep into virgin grooves providing CD-quiet sound but with that analog magic, big tall wide detail and space EVERYWHERE even from behind. I've used several hands full of carts from Audio Technica, Shure, Sumiko, Empire, Nackagoa, Ortofon, Grado and Dynavector. In the sub-2k$ arena, with current MSRP @ 1299$, the Blackbird is the clear winner and not just in my eye. It's highly regarded by reviewers and users alike. Hailing from the BPS/EVO III nude design both are highly regarded and a super deal for the money. I've heard the Blackbird on a 6K$ VPI Prime Signature with 12"JMW 3D arm, periphery / spindle weight and SDS drive system. takes even less time to set up than on the 1200/1210 and blows you out of the water with it's sound quality. On the Technics it sounds very close to the master tape, whereas on the VPI table the sound it better than the master tape, like the band is playing in front of you.

Don't take my word for it, you can still find Blackbirds for not much more than the EVO-II/ BPS,.. 600$ is what I paid for a brand new in the box, unopened Blackbird HO, not much more than the price of a new BPS. Take the leap, make the move- try em both. You can't go wrong unless you set it up wrong (and setup is easy on the 1200-1210) or either cart is are damaged from the get. Be prepared to be amazed at how good vinyl can really sound. For me it was a quantum leap in fidelity, my rig sounding like I spent 4 times as much on gear as I did.

I'm getting that VPI table, the Sumiko B-Bird and BPS are recommended cartridges depending on which table you are buying from them. I Since they endorse these cartridges, they must sound very good indeed. See how good a Technics 1200-1210 can sound today.

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