Thorens And Nagaoka Mp-200

the thin end of the wedge
photomadnz
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Thorens And Nagaoka Mp-200

Post by photomadnz » 15 Jul 2011 11:41

I have a Thornens TD126 MK3 with TP16 III. It came with an old Grado Gold G2+ which I find a bit "soft"?
After doing a bit of research I think the Nagaoka MP-200 would have a nice warm sound also but slightly better dynamics. I dont understand the compliance issues so will this cartridge work ok on this arm?

markcass
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Post by markcass » 15 Jul 2011 13:51

Hi

So far as I can see from the Tonearm Database, this arm has a fairly low effective mass of 7.5 grams. This means that the majority of moving-magnet cartridges, of medium to high compliance, should work well.

There isn't a compliance figure for the MP-200 in the Cartridge Database, but it is likely to be in the medium range, judging from the recommended tracking force of 1.5 - 2 grams.

The cartridge's own weight is also quite standard at 6.5 grams, and well within the range most arms are designed for.

All this suggests a comfortable match between arm and cartridge.

HTH

Mark

bastlnut
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Post by bastlnut » 15 Jul 2011 18:31

hallo,

if you remove the spacers between the Grado and the headshell you will get better sound and the Nagaoka will not be able to compete....
this of course depends on the phono stage you are using...
once you have removed the spacers and reinstalled the cartridge,
loosen the hex screws at the tonearm base and lower the arm so you get the tonearm wand parallel to the platter with a record on top.
this will improve the dynamics and detail retrieval.

regards,
bas

ipapb

Post by ipapb » 15 Jul 2011 20:37

Hi,
The MP 200 compliance is 21 cu and the VTF recommended is 1,8 to 2 gr. (from Nagaoka).
Good for TP 16, IMO.

Regards

photomadnz
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Post by photomadnz » 16 Jul 2011 01:33

Thanks for all your help. You guys are the best source of info! bastlnut I cant see any spacers but Ill try to get a better look under there. Cheers

bastlnut
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Post by bastlnut » 16 Jul 2011 09:30

hallo,

these are the spacers that were installed at original sale and mostly never removed.
http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp ... ll_kit.jpg
this is what it looks like, headshell...spacers....cartridge
18160

FWIW
the Nagaoka cartridge is for mid to heavy mid weight tonearms.
so the light Thorens arm is not the prefered partner for the cartridge.

regards,
bas

photomadnz
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Post by photomadnz » 16 Jul 2011 09:56

Thanks. Mine doesnt have those spacers. The cartridge is right up to the headshell?

ipapb

Post by ipapb » 16 Jul 2011 13:02

the Nagaoka cartridge is for mid to heavy mid weight tonearms.
so the light Thorens arm is not the prefered partner for the cartridge.
Why not ?
See the resonance evaluator : 21 cu = FR arround 9-10 Hz.
https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_r ... mit=Submit
Seems good.

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Post by bastlnut » 16 Jul 2011 17:44

ipapb wrote:
the Nagaoka cartridge is for mid to heavy mid weight tonearms.
so the light Thorens arm is not the prefered partner for the cartridge.
Why not ?
See the resonance evaluator : 21 cu = FR arround 9-10 Hz.
https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_r ... mit=Submit
Seems good.
because the value 21 cu is wrong as it is effectively a lower compliance cartridge in practice.
additionally the evaluator is a guide line and only indicates tendencies and not real life use.
anyone who has used these cartridges with different tonearms will confirm that this is not a high compliance cartridge.

this is the danger in living in and refering to a world that lives in numbers and consequently without real life experience.
pushing numbers is only an indication of where to start, and nothing more!
there has been many times that the numbers has said go and the results were just BLA.
i have experienced this and i am not the only one.
Nagaoka cartridges sound better with heavier tonearms.
this is real life experience. this is fact.

regards,
bas

ipapb

Post by ipapb » 16 Jul 2011 19:09

because the value 21 cu is wrong
Nagaoka does not know the compliance of its cartridges ?
Nagaoka cartridges sound better with heavier tonearms.
What types of cartridge ? All ?
Curious.

Regards

Guest

Post by Guest » 16 Jul 2011 20:44

VTF range is consistent with 21cu@static/21cu@10Hz. Also cross checks OK with MP-300 measured compliance versus VTF range (for the MP-300) from Werner's compliance table.

In which case, operation in a 7.5g arm appears fine. Quite a bit heavier OK too, available suspension damping looks OK, in principle. That extends workable range.

I suspect confusion, once again, has arisen from past attempts to transcribe from 21cu@100Hz, which would (erroneously) suggest a high compliance. The rules of thumb don't work here, again.

I'd trust the VTF range and Nagoaka compliance figure, they are consistent. Even tallies with bas' experience, if one interprets appropriately.

bastlnut
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Post by bastlnut » 17 Jul 2011 09:33

hallo,

static and dynamic compliance are 2 separate things and should not be confused.
static values are higher than dynamic values though it is the dynamic value that is the important one when using any spreadsheet like the resonance evaluator.
consistency in printed measurements and how they are achieved leaves a lot to be desired.

this is a cartridge that rule of thumb misses a bit, but so do all the spreadsheets too.
medium to heavy medium eff. mass arms are best for the Nagaoka's.
the light Thorens arm will not let you get the best from the Nagaoka whereas a heavier arm would.

regards,
bas

Guest

Post by Guest » 17 Jul 2011 10:06

bastlnut wrote:this is a cartridge that rule of thumb misses a bit, but so do all the spreadsheets too.
Not mine !

That cart is predicted as quite tolerant, suiting med mass well.

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Post by bastlnut » 17 Jul 2011 10:21

ld wrote:
bastlnut wrote:this is a cartridge that rule of thumb misses a bit, but so do all the spreadsheets too.
Not mine !
and like rule of thumb, it is hit and miss.
this time it is close and other times off the mark.

regards,
bas

Guest

Post by Guest » 17 Jul 2011 10:29

bastlnut wrote:this time it is close and other times off the mark.
Not as far as I'm aware. Do you have an example ?

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