Cartridge Compliance

the thin end of the wedge
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Sunwire
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Sunwire » 16 Aug 2019 17:37

chiz wrote:
16 Aug 2019 11:52


Here are some measurements I made of Ortofon, Denon, Audio Technica and Shure cartridges
How did you measure compliance of these cartridges?

chiz
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by chiz » 16 Aug 2019 18:20

Luxman78 wrote:
16 Aug 2019 16:30
chiz wrote:
16 Aug 2019 11:52
Luxman78 wrote:
16 Aug 2019 09:00
Me neither. Especially when we don’t always have compliance specs at the required 10Hz to put into the calculator.

Here are some measurements I made of Ortofon, Denon, Audio Technica and Shure cartridges compared to quoted specs:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 95#p901323

Here are some measurements someone else made of Nagaoka cartridges:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 9&t=107555

I think this article on the subject is an interesting read:

http://korfaudio.com/blog32
http://korfaudio.com/blog33
Thank you for your post. I don't necessarily see it as "don't buy Nagaoka!" in any way, so, if there's any other point to it but "there's no sure way of telling what you're gonna get" I surely missed it. If your point IS that I can't be sure, there's really only that much I can do with that.

I read your links. The korf blog didn't say "don't do it like that, do it like this" it just said "don't do it like that" which I'm not all that fond of. If you have enough info to dispute a formula, you should have enough to offer a new, better one. OTOH if the point of korf blog is to say; "there'll never be a way of telling, you have to listen with your heart / do a leap of faith / purchase blind /go impulse-shopping /change 1000 cartridges until you find the perfecft one (or you fill the blank with your example), that's just not me.

I'm more practical. I have a real-world problem at hand - my tone-arm and cartridge don't work well together, my woofers swing like crazy, I started calling them swingers. Going higher in CU bloats my lows and going lower often means mistracking (I hear loss of details, but I used an entry level DJ cartridge so I have myself to blame).

So, to find some sort of compromise between the two, I'm looking for a cart that reveals a lot of detal in music, but is actually of lower compliance. I've spent a couple of days now on the Internet looking for such a cart and a lot of sources agree that Nagaoka MP100 might be the one. I haven't heard/read one bad thing about it, starting wiht VE here where (pellegrini, i think it was) said a lot of good things about it and he was using it on a Technics.

I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but it seems as sure as I'll ever get.
Ok, sorry if that wasn’t very helpful.

My point was that in my experience, unless the manufacturer provides a compliance spec at 10Hz it is not possible to predict the resulting resonant frequency accurately.

I realise this is frustrating for anyone trying to check for optimal compatibility before purchase.

The conclusion from the korf blog is “Until someone comes up with a proper calculation accounting for actual elastomer properties, it's probably best to simply ignore the formula and select compliance/effective mass combinations empirically” which I agree does nothing to solve the problem. I find it an interesting discussion of the problem nonetheless.

I’ve not used the MP100 myself but have read reports from a number of users saying it works well on the Technics SL-1200MK2 and similar. It’s certainly a model I would consider trying myself.

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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 16 Aug 2019 21:31

chiz wrote:
16 Aug 2019 18:20
Luxman78 wrote:
16 Aug 2019 16:30
chiz wrote:
16 Aug 2019 11:52


Me neither. Especially when we don’t always have compliance specs at the required 10Hz to put into the calculator.

Here are some measurements I made of Ortofon, Denon, Audio Technica and Shure cartridges compared to quoted specs:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 95#p901323

Here are some measurements someone else made of Nagaoka cartridges:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 9&t=107555

I think this article on the subject is an interesting read:

http://korfaudio.com/blog32
http://korfaudio.com/blog33
Thank you for your post. I don't necessarily see it as "don't buy Nagaoka!" in any way, so, if there's any other point to it but "there's no sure way of telling what you're gonna get" I surely missed it. If your point IS that I can't be sure, there's really only that much I can do with that.

I read your links. The korf blog didn't say "don't do it like that, do it like this" it just said "don't do it like that" which I'm not all that fond of. If you have enough info to dispute a formula, you should have enough to offer a new, better one. OTOH if the point of korf blog is to say; "there'll never be a way of telling, you have to listen with your heart / do a leap of faith / purchase blind /go impulse-shopping /change 1000 cartridges until you find the perfecft one (or you fill the blank with your example), that's just not me.

I'm more practical. I have a real-world problem at hand - my tone-arm and cartridge don't work well together, my woofers swing like crazy, I started calling them swingers. Going higher in CU bloats my lows and going lower often means mistracking (I hear loss of details, but I used an entry level DJ cartridge so I have myself to blame).

So, to find some sort of compromise between the two, I'm looking for a cart that reveals a lot of detal in music, but is actually of lower compliance. I've spent a couple of days now on the Internet looking for such a cart and a lot of sources agree that Nagaoka MP100 might be the one. I haven't heard/read one bad thing about it, starting wiht VE here where (pellegrini, i think it was) said a lot of good things about it and he was using it on a Technics.

I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but it seems as sure as I'll ever get.
Ok, sorry if that wasn’t very helpful.

My point was that in my experience, unless the manufacturer provides a compliance spec at 10Hz it is not possible to predict the resulting resonant frequency accurately.

I realise this is frustrating for anyone trying to check for optimal compatibility before purchase.

The conclusion from the korf blog is “Until someone comes up with a proper calculation accounting for actual elastomer properties, it's probably best to simply ignore the formula and select compliance/effective mass combinations empirically” which I agree does nothing to solve the problem. I find it an interesting discussion of the problem nonetheless.

I’ve not used the MP100 myself but have read reports from a number of users saying it works well on the Technics SL-1200MK2 and similar. It’s certainly a model I would consider trying myself.
No, it IS interesting. I wasn't aiming my answer at you personally. I'm honestly grateful for all these talks.

chiz
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by chiz » 16 Aug 2019 22:06

Sunwire wrote:
16 Aug 2019 17:37
chiz wrote:
16 Aug 2019 11:52


Here are some measurements I made of Ortofon, Denon, Audio Technica and Shure cartridges
How did you measure compliance of these cartridges?
Here’s the method I used. I don’t think it’s perfect but hopefully close enough to give meaningful results.

This test record has a swept 23Hz to 6Hz lateral sine wave with a 1kHz pilot tone superimposed at -20dB relative to the subsonic tone:

https://www.discogs.com/No-Artist-Stere ... se/1034219

I recorded this onto my computer and using an audio editor (my preferred one is Sound Forge) I located the peak amplitudes for the left and right channels. By measuring the length of a single cycle of the sine wave at the peak amplitude we can calculate the peak resonant frequency in Hz. These were averaged for the left and right channels to give a single figure.

To obtain the effective mass I took the value from the specs in the manual (12g including headshell), subtracted the specified weight of the headshell (7.5g), weighed the headshell with cartridge installed and from this we can get a value for the total effective mass.

I then entered the mass and resonant frequency into the green calculator here to find the compliance at 10Hz:

http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html

For the Ortofon OM5E the spec is 20 cu at 10Hz and my measurement came out at 20.6 cu which I felt was close enough to lend some credibility to the method and validate measuring other cartridges which are not specced at 10Hz.

Collux
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Collux » 16 Aug 2019 23:38

[/quote]
I'm more practical. I have a real-world problem at hand - my tone-arm and cartridge don't work well together, my woofers swing like crazy, I started calling them swingers. Going higher in CU bloats my lows and going lower often means mistracking (I hear loss of details, but I used an entry level DJ cartridge so I have myself to blame).
[/quote]

Another approach:
- have you tried a subsonic filter ?

This may be worthwhile at least trying, as it could suggest possible options moving forward.

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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Collux » 17 Aug 2019 08:05

Last edited by Collux on 17 Aug 2019 08:54, edited 1 time in total.

lini
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by lini » 17 Aug 2019 08:38

Kruno: As already mentioned further above, it's possible that you've simply got a VMN95E with faulty suspension. Hence I'd suggest you to compare cantilever position unloaded vs. loaded with a tracking force between 2 and 2 1/2 g - if the deflection is greater than ca. 0.25 mm under that load, that would hint to the suspension not being ok. Additionally I'd suggest to check with the vendor, whether he can borrow you another VMN95E for comparison.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Luxman78
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 17 Aug 2019 08:50

Collux wrote:
16 Aug 2019 23:38
Another approach:
- have you tried a subsonic filter ?

This may be worthwhile at least trying, as it could suggest possible options moving forward.
Oh yes, thank you. Subsonic filter was one of the ways the repairman managed to eliminate the problems - stop woofers swinging. I think it would be worthwhile to try to find a better cart/arm match first. I'd like to try and get a clean signal before simply trimming at low extremes. But if I fail, I don't mind looking into the subsonic filter. At the moment it’s not the cheaper option, my gear doesn’t have filters so I’d have to get one standalone or change amp.

I know my model is not the state of the art TT, but I’ve seen it play beautifully with no subsonic on a record that DID make the woofers swing (meaning it was warped, but we still got good sound and still woofers from it by using a different cart – an old Ortofon; same record - change cart - no pulsating). This led me to believe that my cart in my system makes more noise at res. freq. than it should, it is simply prone to make woofers dance even with records that otherwise wouldn’t.

Another thing, my brother has the exact same model of the TT and he asked me to set it up for him. It was on his TT that I used a somewhat odd combo of Concorde and OM series stylus 5E. It plays... you could just fall in love with it. So, it’s not impossible. You probably ask why I didn’t get myself the same combo.

Thing is, before my problem started, I had no cart and asked around what to get. AT-VM95E comes highly recommended and I had no reason to doubt it, so I bought a headshell that was also missing from the TT. From here it’s cutting my loses by simply buying a new cart and use the headshell or pay for the Concorde cart + stylus.




Notice: If anyone’s interested, I got another mail from Ortofon saying that on further inspection the mentioned combo might work well, but they advise against going with higher models in OM series.

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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 17 Aug 2019 09:02

lini wrote:
17 Aug 2019 08:38
Kruno: As already mentioned further above, it's possible that you've simply got a VMN95E with faulty suspension. Hence I'd suggest you to compare cantilever position unloaded vs. loaded with a tracking force between 2 and 2 1/2 g - if the deflection is greater than ca. 0.25 mm under that load, that would hint to the suspension not being ok. Additionally I'd suggest to check with the vendor, whether he can borrow you another VMN95E for comparison.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
Thank you Manfred. I'll give it a look. Few side questions to get me on my way; since a flatter record plays fine and subsonic filter also calms the speaker cones, could it still be the cantilever? It sounds extreme, I'd expect that to be heard even with subsonic. Perhaps I'm wrong.


Did you by any chance had any experience with the Nagaoka cartridges?

33na3rd
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by 33na3rd » 20 Aug 2019 16:12

chiz wrote:
16 Aug 2019 11:52

I think this article on the subject is an interesting read:

http://korfaudio.com/blog32
http://korfaudio.com/blog33
The only thing this forum is missing is a "like" button!

That was indeed a very interesting read, thank you for sharing.

lini
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by lini » 21 Aug 2019 12:28

Kruno: Yes, it could still be the cantilever suspension. I.e., a problem with the cantilever suspension doesn't necessarily mean, that it has to be completely broken - it might just as well be a bit to loose, so that the official compliance specs aren't met.

And sorry, I haven't got a Nagaoka MP in my cartridge collection, so no direct personal experience. The only Nagaoka I have is the JT555.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Luxman78
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 22 Aug 2019 14:05

lini wrote:
21 Aug 2019 12:28
Kruno: Yes, it could still be the cantilever suspension. I.e., a problem with the cantilever suspension doesn't necessarily mean, that it has to be completely broken - it might just as well be a bit to loose, so that the official compliance specs aren't met.

And sorry, I haven't got a Nagaoka MP in my cartridge collection, so no direct personal experience. The only Nagaoka I have is the JT555.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini
You're very kind, thank you!

Luxman78
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 19 Feb 2020 11:12

Hello darkness my old friend...

And hello you loving knowledge trove!!

I'm still trying to fix my TT (A quick reminder: it is inheritance so selling it or throwing it away is out of the question. It behaves badly, it is exhibiting what I now came to believe is a pinch warp as cones are swinging silently, slowly and violently).

It took me awhile to find someone I'd trust to dissect this TT without harming it, so we took it apart completely (it needed the lube job anyway, so why not...?) We took this opportunity to test every little detail and found NOTHING!! not in the bearings, not with the "stop levers" not with electronics, no mechanical contact, no dent in the platter, nothing...

So, I'm back at compliance numbers and it's a drag without a reliable way of converting Japs numbers into what we use in the west. It is a:

Technics SL-Q202
Quartz lock
Direct drive
Medium tone arm mass (11g, not the same as 1200 although they look the same to the bare eye)
I used Ortofon headshell of 9.4g
Audiotechnica AT-VM95E cart and original stylus (also rated dyn compliance of 7 but @100Hz)

I figured that perhaps the manufacturer avoided this problem by choosing the best possible stylus so I'm trying to recreate the original set up.

I found the original headshell of 7.5g (made by Technics 40 years ago - I was very lucky, it is NOS, an original part but never been used).

The manual states that the original cart was compliance 10 (also @100Hz). These are, of course hard to find these days, so I'm looking for a replacement to be as close to the original as possible.

NOW THE QUESTION: If you were looking for a way to solve this without the damped carts or subsonic filter, which way would you move; towards higher resonant freq of 12-14Hz or lower from 7-9Hz? What is the common range for pinch warp freq?

Luxman78
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 20 Feb 2020 08:25

Anyone... Please... At least the bottom question. I am trying to solve this on my own as much as I can. I've been fidgeting with the numbers for almost a year now, it's just that it's difficult without unified compliance units.

Could you at least answer me this; my manual says that the effective tone arm mass is 11g without the headshell weight. When using your calculators, should I add the headshell weight to the tone arm? Does it matter if I add it to the cart (how is this calculator programed)?

I'm almost there in fact. If the mass of the headshell should be added to the tone arm, then I had a rather low resonance frequency of arround eight. Going for the lower mass headshell and lower CU cart, I'll get something like 10.3 which is prefered by most opinions out there from what I've read so far.

felixbo
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by felixbo » 20 Feb 2020 10:05

Hi,
do you have the possibility to measure the tonearm-cartridge resonance frequency?
I use "audacity". Just make a short recording of any record (5-20sec. is enough) and analyse spectrum. Use record rate 44100Hz and size at 32700 or more. Look at the subsonics around 2-20Hz. The peak indicates the resonant frequency of the tonearm-cartridge system. It´s really that simple.
Res. freq. between 8-12 Hz is ok, 7-14Hz tolerable. If res. is ok you probably need a subsonic filter...

Cheers Felix

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