Cartridge Compliance

the thin end of the wedge
Sunwire
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Sunwire » 14 Aug 2019 19:06

Does anyone have a copy of the spreadsheet mentioned in the early pages of this thread?

JaS
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by JaS » 14 Aug 2019 19:19

At least one early contributor to the thread is dead and some of the others haven't been members for nearly a decade, but you could try over on Audiokarma?

lini
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by lini » 14 Aug 2019 20:29

Luxman78 wrote:
14 Aug 2019 16:43
So, if it says 11g and I'm using another headshell, i should just make up for the difference? (...)
Well, yes and no. Yes, if you're happy with a somewhat crude approximation. However, in fact it's a bit more complicated, 'cause the majority of the mass of a headshell usually won't be directly above the needle tip, but rather a bit closer to the pivot, and hence not the whole weight of the headshell will contribute to the effective mass 1:1, but rather a bit less. And in case of quite a few Technics models it'll be difficult to save effective mass with a different headshell anyway, as these already had comparatively light headshells to begin with.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Collux
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Collux » 15 Aug 2019 04:38

Sunwire wrote:
14 Aug 2019 19:06
Does anyone have a copy of the spreadsheet mentioned in the early pages of this thread?
Seems worthwhile posting to the 'Tools' section if it can be obtained?

FWIW it's hard to follow the thread without the spreadsheet.

Alec124c41
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Alec124c41 » 15 Aug 2019 05:38

I was looking at the chart in Cartridge Resonance Evaluator. It gives a broader picture.
https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_r ... luator.php
I know that there are people that like to calculate down to the last minute iota. There is a point of diminishing returns.

Cheers,
Alec

Luxman78
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 15 Aug 2019 12:43

Woooow, people, thank you very much for engaging in this thread and trying to add to the debate. Very nice of you all.

I also thought it would be a nice thing to get that excel spreadsheet.

@JaS I get the digg. I arrived late at the vinyl comeback... :D :D

@lini but I get what I need to do now (hopefully) and I have you to thank if it's so. I always wondered why would anyone use the effective mass calculator (you just look it up in the manuals, right?) and then I thought that's if they loose manuals :)

OK I'm doing it all over again. I don't mind as long as there's hope of doing it right.

@Alec I don't enjoy calculations; I have a problem and can't afford just bringing tens of different cartridges home for a test. I have to try to predict results at least to a certain degree.

Also, very important for me: I got amazing results with an odd combo of Ortofon Concord ProS and a hifi line stylus 5E from the OM series. I've sent an e-mail to Ortofon to ask if there's risk of damaging something but got a whole different answer, I'm publishing it here in hopes it might help someone, but I distance myself from it - it seems completely text-book answer with no room for experimenting. Anyway, here it is:
Concorde Pro S is a basic entry-level DJ cartridge, stylus 5E is a replacement for HiFi OM cartridges. We distinguish between HiFi and DJ range and these cartridges configurations.

We neither recommend nor support the combination Pro S + replacement stylus 5E. Physically HiFi replacement styli 3E, 5E, 10, 20, 30 and 40 will fit on Concorde cartridge bodies, incl. Concorde Pro S. However it is necessary to say that each cartridge series is designed with a synergistic combination in mind - that is, each stylus is made to compliment the magnet and coil configuration of each cartridge body. Using alternative DJ stylus model with Pro S body will not provide the full benefit of either product, and might even provide undesired results, including (but not limited to) differences in output, unbalanced sound reproduction, etc.

- Replacement styli 3E, 5E, 10, 20, 30 and 40 are for HiFi application and supposed to be mounted on the HiFi OM 5S/ 5E /Super OM 5/ cartridges bodies.

- Stylus 10 can be used with Concorde Nightclub MkII, Arkiv & Gold, but not good enough combination if you wish HiFi performance.

- Stylus 5E fits all other DJ carts with spherical stylus, but again you will not get the desired HiFi accuracy (S-120 stylus doesn’t fit physically and cannot be used) and some a/m undesired result can occur.

- Combination Pro S and stylus 10/20/30/40 makes no sense as you will not get the advantages of coils in these more advanced styli, just waste of money.



Also, it is vital to maintain a cartridge/tonearm system resonance frequency within the acceptable range of 7 to 12 Hz, whereas 10 Hz recommended. The system compatibility can be calculated using formula f = 1000 : (2 x π x √ (M x C)):

f - Cartridge resonance frequency in Hz

π - 3.14159265359...

C - Cartridge compliance lateral in µm/mN

M - Total tonearm system mass which is a sum of Mass of cartridge, Mass of headshell and screws and Effective mass of tone arm (all values in gram).



1. Frequency within 7-12Hz is an optimal combination

2. Possible combination that probably can be used without problems with a frequency slightly outside optimal interval: 6,5-7Hz and 12-14Hz

3. Outside the range 6,5-7Hz and 12-14Hz is a questionable combination that might not work properly

Luxman78
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 15 Aug 2019 13:26

What am I supposed to enter in the first frame? Please don't tell me it's tone arm's resonant freq!!
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Alec124c41
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Alec124c41 » 15 Aug 2019 15:00

Luxman78 wrote:
15 Aug 2019 13:26
What am I supposed to enter in the first frame? Please don't tell me it's tone arm's resonant freq!!
This one is to calculate the tonearm's effective mass, given that the resonant frequency has been determined using a record with the low tones.
You are going the other way.
Please not that there are other factors beside the resonant frequency, that go into delivering a good sound.
There are many people who have used Technics turntables and arms, who can recommend a cartridge that sounds good, given an indication of your budget. This would be more helpful.

Cheers,
Alec

Luxman78
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 15 Aug 2019 19:56

Alec124c41 wrote:
15 Aug 2019 15:00
Luxman78 wrote:
15 Aug 2019 13:26
What am I supposed to enter in the first frame? Please don't tell me it's tone arm's resonant freq!!
This one is to calculate the tonearm's effective mass, given that the resonant frequency has been determined using a record with the low tones.
You are going the other way.
Please not that there are other factors beside the resonant frequency, that go into delivering a good sound.
There are many people who have used Technics turntables and arms, who can recommend a cartridge that sounds good, given an indication of your budget. This would be more helpful.

Cheers,
Alec
Thanks again. I was afraid you were going to say something like that. Recomms are a good thing, but since I don't have my original headshell, no one can really vouch I'll sort my woofers trembling. I'll think of the way...

Alec124c41
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Alec124c41 » 15 Aug 2019 23:05

You are overthinking this.

Sunwire
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Sunwire » 15 Aug 2019 23:13

Luxman78 - I've posted this in several other threads, so apologies to those who are tired of seeing it. :)

If you want to figure out the effective mass of your arm with the headshell and cartridge you have, you can test for the resonant frequency, then put that number into the calculator you shared two posts ago.



I don't trust the online calculators to figure out the resonant frequency of cartridge/arm combinations.

I don't think the figures for effective mass of tonearms and compliance of cartridges are dependable since every manufacturer may be calculating them differently and actual products may not meet the specifications, anyway. The position of the tonearm counterweight and the amount of play time on the cartridge may affect these figures, too.

I recently have been playing around with measuring tonearm resonance directly using Audacity.
https://www.audacityteam.org/download/

If you can record from your preamp to your computer, you can download Audacity for free from the web and use it to make the recording. If you then look at the resulting recording using the "Plot Spectrum" tool on the "Analyze" menu, you can see exactly where YOUR tonearm and cartridge are resonating.

Here's a screen shot of a recording I made using a Technics EPC-p22 cartridge with Jico SAS stylus on a Technics SL-D93 turntable. You can clearly see the tonearm/cartridge resonance is between 8 and 9 Hz (notice the big peak there). Most people recommend trying to achieve a resonant frequency between 8 and 15 Hz, with 10-12 Hz the "ideal" (but there is dispute about this).
I have a lot more testing to do, but one thing I've noticed is that it seems to help to sample a large amount of the recording (about 2 minutes) in order to get a good reading of the tonearm resonance. If you sample a section that is too small, you will notice the resonant frequency is different for different sections of music. The difference is relatively small, however. I don't think I've seen a range of more than 1 Hz either way when I take several measurements from different sections of a record. So, if most samples show 10 Hz, it's very rare that any other measurement using the same cartridge and arm would be less than 9 Hz or more than 11 Hz.

I haven't figured out if there is a particular record that is best for this test. But I theorize that it's better to use a record of real music you listen to, rather than use a test record of pink noise or some other test signal. After all, you want to find out how the tonearm/cartridge behave when you're playing your music, not some test tone, right? So far, the resonance frequency doesn't seem to change when I try the same cartridge/arm combination with different records, so it may not make much difference. Sampling a "too small" amount of music does make a difference, however.

Despite my theory that using records of real music is best, this screen shot shows the result when playing the frequency sweep on the HiFi News Analog Test LP #2 (not real music). I'm using it as an illustration because the resonant frequency stands out so clearly on this shot.

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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 16 Aug 2019 09:00

Alec124c41 wrote:
15 Aug 2019 23:05
You are overthinking this.
Thank you! :D It is also important to hear this every now and then. Perhaps not overthinking as such, but trying to find enough reassurance before my next purchase. I wouldn't do any of this if I could just test stylii and change them for as long as necessary and then decide what I'm going to buy.
Sunwire wrote:
15 Aug 2019 23:13
I don't trust the online calculators to figure out the resonant frequency of cartridge/arm combinations.
Me neither. Not anymore. All the calculations say I shouldn't have this problem I'm having with the AT-VM95E and yet, there it is. Going one third of the way with my master volume (I know it's not precise to go by this, but playing this cart on a Technics through the phono input, shouldn't be too much gain) and the cones are dancing.

I am slowly but surely arriving at this conclusion; for one reason or another, lower compliance cartridges seem to give better results in my system, but I'm looking for a hifi cart. Today, low compliance hifi cartridges are becoming rare, so my choice is shrinking...

BUT...

OTOH I've yet to find one bad review of the Nagaoka MP100 and believe me I looked (as Alec said, I did give this a lot of time, which means I must've open 10-15 sites with some sort of comment on MP100, this one included). It's praises all the way... For the tracking, for sound, for detail etc.

It is 5.5 in Japanese numbers so roughly 9.6 and this also makes calculations really good.


So, unless someone stops me, this is my decision; I'm going for the Nagaoka MP100.

PS: It's just that the home page of Nagaoka says it's neither MM nor MC, but moving alloy (??), since it states 5mV, I guess I shouldn't worry.

chiz
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by chiz » 16 Aug 2019 11:52

Luxman78 wrote:
16 Aug 2019 09:00
Sunwire wrote:
15 Aug 2019 23:13
I don't trust the online calculators to figure out the resonant frequency of cartridge/arm combinations.
Me neither. Especially when we don’t always have compliance specs at the required 10Hz to put into the calculator.

Here are some measurements I made of Ortofon, Denon, Audio Technica and Shure cartridges compared to quoted specs:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 95#p901323

Here are some measurements someone else made of Nagaoka cartridges:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 9&t=107555

I think this article on the subject is an interesting read:

http://korfaudio.com/blog32
http://korfaudio.com/blog33

Luxman78
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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 16 Aug 2019 16:30

chiz wrote:
16 Aug 2019 11:52
Luxman78 wrote:
16 Aug 2019 09:00
Sunwire wrote:
15 Aug 2019 23:13
I don't trust the online calculators to figure out the resonant frequency of cartridge/arm combinations.
Me neither. Especially when we don’t always have compliance specs at the required 10Hz to put into the calculator.

Here are some measurements I made of Ortofon, Denon, Audio Technica and Shure cartridges compared to quoted specs:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 95#p901323

Here are some measurements someone else made of Nagaoka cartridges:

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... 9&t=107555

I think this article on the subject is an interesting read:

http://korfaudio.com/blog32
http://korfaudio.com/blog33
Thank you for your post. I don't necessarily see it as "don't buy Nagaoka!" in any way, so, if there's any other point to it but "there's no sure way of telling what you're gonna get" I surely missed it. If your point IS that I can't be sure, there's really only that much I can do with that.

I read your links. The korf blog didn't say "don't do it like that, do it like this" it just said "don't do it like that" which I'm not all that fond of. If you have enough info to dispute a formula, you should have enough to offer a new, better one. OTOH if the point of korf blog is to say; "there'll never be a way of telling, you have to listen with your heart / do a leap of faith / purchase blind /go impulse-shopping /change 1000 cartridges until you find the perfecft one (or you fill the blank with your example), that's just not me.

I'm more practical. I have a real-world problem at hand - my tone-arm and cartridge don't work well together, my woofers swing like crazy, I started calling them swingers. Going higher in CU bloats my lows and going lower often means mistracking (I hear loss of details, but I used an entry level DJ cartridge so I have myself to blame).

So, to find some sort of compromise between the two, I'm looking for a cart that reveals a lot of detal in music, but is actually of lower compliance. I've spent a couple of days now on the Internet looking for such a cart and a lot of sources agree that Nagaoka MP100 might be the one. I haven't heard/read one bad thing about it, starting wiht VE here where (pellegrini, i think it was) said a lot of good things about it and he was using it on a Technics.

I'm not saying it's a sure thing, but it seems as sure as I'll ever get.

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Re: Cartridge Compliance

Post by Luxman78 » 16 Aug 2019 16:36

Don't get me wrong I'd prefer to go like this:

Gentlemen, choose your weapon!!
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