Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

the thin end of the wedge
JRob1125
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by JRob1125 » 07 Jun 2018 19:11

Does a wider major radius do anything other than extend stylus life? I think it's odd that their best stylus is a 0.25 x 1.0 (unless I'm picturing it wrong) unless there's some kind of audible benefit that comes with narrower shapes

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by JRob1125 » 12 Jun 2018 12:44

I emailed them again about the difference between the two:

"Thank you for your enquiry and the difference between the Extended contact and the Paratrace profile is explained in the attachment forwarded. You will note the extension in the groove helps with low frequency distortion, record and stylus wear. The extended contact is a straight sided cone with a frontal radius of 17 microns with contact radii measuring 6 microns. You will appreciate the scanning radii of 6 microns means a point of contact rather than extended."


Sounds like an elliptical to me. I asked them earlier and they claim it isn't....maybe that thought I was talking about the "shaved conical" type you see on budget cartridges

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by JRob1125 » 24 Jul 2018 23:05

I found a couple pictures that may be the Extended.Contact. Whatever it is, I'm absolutely in love with it. Better than any line contact I've heard besides the Paratrace (which it nearly equals). Hard to believe it's a .2 x .7

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... &mode=view

http://i.imgur.com/AY4LayWh.jpg#G8a3m

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by Bobbybluz » 15 Aug 2018 03:19

dlaloum wrote:
1200y3 wrote:Many DJs in competition use far superior equipment than audiophiles. DJs use both digital and analog. Stylus profiles are chosen for level and style of sound, as well as image shape.

(Trivia) A worn record has serious scratchiness with a spherical, but not a line contact. Wouldn't that mean that the LC is not as FAITHFUL when it doesn't have the sound of the true record?

It was stated above about the fine diamonds used in the high cost sphericals. Is that not the point I was only trying to make? An LC is great for covering up poor manufacturing points.
The superiority of this DJ equipment, how is it measured? Frequency response? tracking ability? effective tip mass of stylus? Ability to survive scratching? Ability to back cue?

Although I know of a few eliptical DJ styli, I know of no LC DJ oriented styli, and no 0.2mil elipticals either.... And although there are high quality conicals, I believe they all belong to the broadcast world and not the DJ/Club world...

The reason an LC can sound good where a spherical sounds scratchy is usually due to the record having been worn out at the point on the groove wall where a spherical or eliptical makes contact.
The Line contact "reads" the groove wall both above and below this point (ie along the line contact patch) thereby "reading" virgin unworn groove wall, and making the record sound a lot closer to pristine.
A fine LC will get closer to tracking the "true record" than any spherical/conical can achieve. - To achieve highest possible fidelity the shape of the needle needs to approximate the shape of the cutter used to make the original master as closely as possible without itself become a cutter (which would destroy the vinyl).

(Reading the Van Den Hull material from their website can be quite educational)

Where there is high frequency content, a fine LC (yes there are coarse LC's too!) - will track them accurately - and as it is not "surfing" past corrugations in the groove wall that are too fine for it, it will also have reduced wear, the stylus motion will be more controlled (no "jumping" from groove wall ridge to groove wall ridge as it cannot fit between them) - this can also reduce undesirable effects within the lower frequencies as the needle motion is more controlled.

Yes a high quality diamond is important - but a low mass cantilever has a greater impact on the sound.
A highly polished high quality diamond will reduce friction and wear, and increase needle life - but it does not overcome the issue of "pinch" distortion/mistracking which is an issue of geometry, and can only be overcome by having a smaller side radius.

A highly polished spherical is very good, but a highly polished fine edged LC is better by all measurable criteria related to the accurate reproduction of the original recording.
If you think DJ styli are capable of bettering a totl LC - please state by what measures you believe this - then we can look at that further.

There are plenty of links in this thread already explaining the benefits of LC's.

I know of no LC's fitted to cantilevers appropriate for scratching and back cueing - hence I doubt any DJ's are using LC's.

bye for now

David

Stanton made the D6800SL Stereohedron stylus allegedly for disco DJ use. After looking at them through a microscope they don't look anywhere near as durable as a D6800EL elliptical stylus and I'm not about to try back cueing with any I own. Here's a NIB D6800SL of mine: https://i.imgur.com/el4sKqP.jpg

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by watchnerd » 14 Sep 2018 03:37

Since listening to my AT33 mono more on some great mono jazz LPs, I'm starting to wonder if the advanced stylii are worth the bother.

Yes, they have more resolution, yes they have more detail, yes they have better high frequency response....

But they're also more of a PITA to set up.

Maybe I'll just compromise with a good elliptical, so much less picky, and call it a day.

After all, if I really want more detail, a lower noise floor, better frequency response, and less distortion, I can listen to high resolution digital.

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by JRob1125 » 14 Sep 2018 18:47

A high quality .3 x .7 elliptical is all you need if you're not a perfectionist. Even a high quality .6 mil conical sounds pretty damn good

IMO, a nude .3 x .7 true elliptical is the entry point to "high fidelity".

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by jdjohn » 14 Sep 2018 22:34

JRob1125 wrote:A high quality .3 x .7 elliptical is all you need if you're not a perfectionist. Even a high quality .6 mil conical sounds pretty damn good

IMO, a nude .3 x .7 true elliptical is the entry point to "high fidelity".
^^^A fair statement IMO. From there, it gets into cantilever construction, and the more exotic designs/materials often use the fancier diamond shapes as well.

Nice pics of that 'Extended Contact' tip, JRob =D> 8)

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by JRob1125 » 04 Jan 2019 22:41

ray_parkhurst wrote:
09 May 2018 22:19
Could be a pseudo-line / micro ridge like the NEO-SAS. If you want you can ship to me and I'll image the contacts and stylus tip for you...
I'm interested, where do I ship it?

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by ray_parkhurst » 04 Jan 2019 23:04

JRob1125 wrote:
04 Jan 2019 22:41
I'm interested, where do I ship it?
PM Sent

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by Hannes_Hannes » 30 Mar 2019 09:56

What do you think about Ortofon Arkiv stylus? Not a hifi but still interesting. It is r/R 13/25 elliptical, major radius bigger than 0.7 mil conical, would it sit higher in the groove?

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by billshurv » 31 Mar 2019 00:01

It's an interesting compromise, obviously more for DJ work where you need to scratch, but unfortunately a bonded diamond. I've not seen it offered in nude. But intriguing enough for me to pick up a nightclub Mk2 stylus for testing.

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by Hannes_Hannes » 31 Mar 2019 07:27

I'm thinking it would have bigger contact area than 0.3x0.7 elliptical thus it would be relatively gentle on vinyl.

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by chiz » 31 Mar 2019 13:20

Hannes_Hannes wrote:
30 Mar 2019 09:56
What do you think about Ortofon Arkiv stylus? Not a hifi but still interesting. It is r/R 13/25 elliptical, major radius bigger than 0.7 mil conical, would it sit higher in the groove?
I agree these are interesting and I bought one.

Could it sit higher in the groove and possibly avoid wear / damage lower down from a previous stylus?

To be honest I haven't found much time to experiment.
Arkiv.jpg
(121.7 KiB) Downloaded 72 times

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by Hannes_Hannes » 31 Mar 2019 14:22

I believe due to possibly bigger contact area it would not cause more rapid wear at 3 g VTF than ordinary 0.3x0.7 elliptical at 2 grams.
If Ortofon would make 2-3 gram VTF range 0.6 mil conical for OM/Concorde I would definitely buy one.

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by watchnerd » 31 Mar 2019 16:54

Hannes_Hannes wrote:
30 Mar 2019 09:56
What do you think about Ortofon Arkiv stylus? Not a hifi but still interesting. It is r/R 13/25 elliptical, major radius bigger than 0.7 mil conical, would it sit higher in the groove?
What headshell does this fit / how is it mounted?

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