Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

the thin end of the wedge
BeeKay79
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by BeeKay79 » 18 Oct 2017 17:15

chiz wrote:
BeeKay79 wrote:My first post here
Hello and welcome :)
Nice photo, thanks for sharing.
BeeKay79 wrote:If stylus runs over these grooves it may create unwanted vibrations. Or am I wrong?
Looks like high frequency information to me, not noise.
Thank You.

And yes. It is high frequency information. That’s for sure.

1200y3
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by 1200y3 » 18 Oct 2017 17:38

Turntable design is all about handling vibration and vibration transfer.

jdjohn
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by jdjohn » 14 Nov 2017 03:34

A bonded stylus design that is new to me: ADC XLM MkII Improved - .3x.7 elliptical diamond, but looks like the shunt is made of some sort gem as well...not sure what it is made of, but seems to be some type of crystal
Front lighting
ADC XLM1.jpg
(44.88 KiB) Downloaded 747 times
Side lighting
ADC XLM2.jpg
(49.24 KiB) Downloaded 743 times

lini
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by lini » 14 Nov 2017 05:16

jdj: That's a sapphire-bonded diamond, aka "Diasa". Basically you could regard it as an improved variant of a bonded diamond just like titanium-bonded diamonds, because both aren't as heavy as the standard bondings on heavier metals like for example stainless steel. And the tips usually were better polished, too.

Sapphire-bonded diamonds weren't used on all too many cartridge models/needle versions. One of the most well known other examples would probably be the Philips GP412(II/III), of which the III also existed in an Empire version as Empire 900-II (not to be confused with the 900 MkII, cause that was a clone of the Ortofon VMS20MkII).

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

jdjohn
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by jdjohn » 14 Nov 2017 16:12

Thanks for the info, lini! I'll have to give it a spin. It looks to be NIB, included in a random box of carts and headshells I found in my dad's garage.

BMRR
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by BMRR » 14 Nov 2017 16:39

I have one of those too. The sapphire part is interesting. I'm not sure how much of a real-world difference it actually makes. I was somewhat disappointed because the person who sold it to me advertised it as a nude diamond. Once I learned that it was a diamond bonded to a sapphire, I was expecting it to at least be a gem-quality (clear) diamond. When it turned out to be an industrial-grade (black) diamond, I was not pleased. But it is what it is, and I should have researched it before buying it.

I did briefly test it, and it sounds pretty good, but I haven't had time to really thoroughly test it yet. It also needs a low or ultra-low mass arm to perform at its best, and all I have at the moment are medium mass arms.

Reading the magazine reviews from back in the day, one gets the impression that this cartridge was at least as good as the Shure V15 Type III, which was a .2x.7mil diamond, and I think Shure's diamond was nude, although I've never seen pictures of one so I'm not 100% sure. If ADC was able to get a bonded .3x.7mil to sound as good or better than a nude .2x.7mil, they must have done something right! Apparently one needs a Black Widow tonearm to achieve that level of performance, however.

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by jdjohn » 14 Nov 2017 17:04

BMRR, I noticed it in your 'list' :) I was fiddling with the one I have, and the cartridge body separated from the back :shock: Luckily I didn't pull too far for the internal wires to come loose from the pins. I slid it back together and still have good resistance on the pins...whew! There seem to be lots of replacement styli out there, and some NOS. I've seen some Shibata options :-k

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by BMRR » 14 Nov 2017 17:53

The XLM stylus from EVG (which is probably made by JICO) is supposed to be very good, and it's super cheap. I bought one, but the problem I'm having with it is that the suspension is so incredibly compliant that it bottoms out if I set the tracking force higher than 0.75g. :shock: I'm not sure if others have had that problem or if mine is defective.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, I have a genuine ADC QLM30 MkIII stylus which is, I believe, supposed to track at 1.5g-3g, but the suspension is so stiff that I can't get it to track unless I increase the VTF to at least 5g. #-o

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by jdjohn » 14 Nov 2017 18:11

Wow, that is light! The majority of my tt decks have those skinny, straight, light arms, so maybe I will have success.

sliceofhogan
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by sliceofhogan » 05 Dec 2017 09:13

I missed this one completely and if already posted, please excuse ;) But what about the Audio Technica SLC? And how about rating the ML below a Shibata (always thought it was the other way around)?
See attached pdf AT systems lineup 2017
https://eu.audio-technica.com/resources ... ges_17.pdf

chiz
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by chiz » 05 Dec 2017 10:30

sliceofhogan wrote:I missed this one completely and if already posted, please excuse ;) But what about the Audio Technica SLC? And how about rating the ML below a Shibata (always thought it was the other way around)?
See attached pdf AT systems lineup 2017
https://eu.audio-technica.com/resources ... ges_17.pdf
It has been suggested that the MicroLine may be cheaper to manufacture than the Shibata with today’s technology, even though the ML is a more advanced design, and that the higher price of the SLC is due to a smaller shank size than the ML or SH.

The comparison table on page 45 of that document looks to have a few errors to me?

lini
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by lini » 05 Dec 2017 12:42

chiz: Well, on a quick glance, the symbols for Shibata and LineContact would appear swapped - and the new radii for ML would seem somewhat odd. Now 0.12 x 2.2 mil = ca. 3 x 56 µm versus formerly 2.5 x 75 µm, which would foremost mean a significantly shrinked major radius - while Namiki/Adamant still specifies their MicroRidge with 70 to 80 µm major radius (and 2 to 3 µm minor radius), so one has to wonder, whether AT's 2.2 mil/56 µm actually apply or might be an intended marketing bug to make the ML look less good.

Still, that table doesn't look all too bad - i.e., if you'd like to see a really bad variant of that table, check the one in the German version of the 2015 catalogue. That's the most messed-up variant of that table I'm aware of.


soh: From the given radii and the looks of the stones, especially the "rotated tombstone" orientation (long sides of the rectangular shank not oriented towards the front and back, but to the sides), I'd think that one can pretty safely assume AT's recent LineContacts to actually be Ogura Vitals (while AT's older Line(ar)Contacts rather looked like Shibatas).

So it's possible that AT's somewhat odd current stylus ranking (ML below Shibata below LineContact) could simply be caused by Ogura charging more for their Vitals than Namiki for their MR/MLs - who knows... And unfortunately I don't know much about patents, but maybe Namiki still has to pay license fees for Shibatas, so that these could be more expensive despite of making the impression of being easier to make.


Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

chiz
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by chiz » 05 Dec 2017 17:46

lini, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Regarding the table, the “approximative contact dimensions ratio” for the ML and SLC may be swapped too – would it not be logical for this ratio to be somewhat related to the ratio between the major/minor radii?

Another "intended marketing bug" perhaps?

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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by sliceofhogan » 05 Dec 2017 23:59

Thx indeed Lini!
My curiosity about the ML/SLC was initiated by the recent jico SAS pricedrop. Since their SAS is very similar to the AT ML, i was kind of interested if there was a correlated price drop on the AT side. Alas, ofcourse no :lol:, but instead found the info on page 7 and 45 concerning the needle shapes and the new SLC on various models.

Suspect the next super SAS (the SSAS :lol: ) will be as expensive as it was a couple of weeks ago and will have a profile closely related to the SLC.

But still wondering: a new needle shape is pretty big news in the world of vinyl/analog. Yet haven't found any reports on it.

chiz
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Post by chiz » 06 Dec 2017 01:07

sliceofhogan wrote: a new needle shape is pretty big news in the world of vinyl/analog. Yet haven't found any reports on it.
If you compare the tables in the 2015 catalogue (page 35) and the 2016 catalogue (page 37) you can see that “Line Contact” becomes “Special Line Contact” but the tip dimensions do not change.

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/aud ... dges.shtml

So I’m not sure we’re seeing anything new here, more likely just a new name for an existing product unfortunately.

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