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the thin end of the wedge

Re: Ortofon FG

Postby flavio81 » 11 Nov 2009 15:38

1200y3 wrote:Any pics of the Shure MR?


Image

Now... update on Effective mass -- the smaller, the better.

0.970mg Shure "bi-radial" (0.4x0.7mil)
0.750mg Ortofon X1-MCP (p-mount, high output MC)
0.500mg Ortofon OM10 stylus (bushed elliptical)
0.400mg Ortofon OM20 stylus (nude elliptical)
0.400mg Ortofon X5-MC (HOMC, nude FG)
0.370mg Shure Elliptical (0.2x0.7mil)
0.300mg Ortofon OM30 stylus (nude Fine Line), OM40 (nude FG)
0.290mg Technics EPC-P202C (p-mount)
0.230mg Technics EPC-P310MC (p-mount, MC)
0.170mg Shure Micro-Ridge (0.15x3.00mil)
0.098mg Technics EPC-100CMK3
0.055mg Technics EPC-P100CMK4 (p-mount)

Technics specs from Technics.
Shure specs from http://www.audioselectief.nl/vraaghethe ... dvorm.html.
Ortofon specs from Ortofon website.

Also note the small difference in mass between the nude OM20 and the bushed OM10 ellipticals... but the OM30 is ligher.
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Postby Axon » 11 Nov 2009 16:50

IIRC, and I can't really back this up with a link because I don't remember where I heard it: Fritz Gyger stopped making stylii a few years ago.
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Postby bauzace50 » 11 Nov 2009 17:42

Hello flavio81,

the meaning of stylus mass usually needs to be expressed as "effective mass". In non-technical terms: the mass, as "seen" by the groove, which includes the mass contributed by the cantilever and its attachments (be they coils, magnets, or whatever).

The "effective mass" is the sum of all those components, according to the way they are attached to each other.

So, one needs to read the specification carefully to determine if it refers to the tip's mass, or, the total sum of the [Diamond+Cantilever+Other Attachments].

It is the compound sum which usually conveys meaning to the consumer.

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Postby Thomas_A » 12 Nov 2009 00:48

I've always wondered about the Trigon stylus shape. What is it?
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Postby fantasia » 12 Nov 2009 01:07

hi guys,

well 1200y and thomas_A

did raise a quite interesting question re the use of the Shibata stylii in the Ortofon 2M BLACK. I think 1200y is right mainly from my own experience,

re wear, it does still amaze me how good the sound can be from an old, but not excessively srcatched; Lp they sound extremely good i have some Lps that are 40-50 years old and they sound really good. A very low wear Lp can sound stunning.

Iam not sure, what the more exotic stylus types are like re wear, or rather
listening to something worn played back by them the most, revealing extractive, stylus profiles. But there would not be much point having such a
stylus if you can't listen to a lot of program material.

My own thoughts are that, a Shibata can or rather seems to play below the typical wear point of most LPs that are most often been played by conicals (second hand LPs that is).

Love to hear some discission on this

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Postby abelb » 13 Nov 2009 11:49

Image
From a Google Books scan of a Popular Mechanics mag from 1975.
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Postby flavio81 » 13 Nov 2009 15:29

abelb wrote:Image
From a Google Books scan of a Popular Mechanics mag from 1975.


Excellent pic!! THANKS!!

Left= Elliptical
Right= Labeled as B&O "Pramanik"... Looks EXACTLY like a Shibata type (or "Hughes" type)
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Postby Thomas_A » 13 Nov 2009 19:11

This later pic also suggest what would happen if the stylus azimuth is off...

An effect that should be different from skewed coil alignment.

Very good picture, thanks.

T
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Postby discopatrick » 15 Nov 2009 01:05

Very interesting pics. I'd love to get my stylii under a microscope and have a look at what sort of condition they are in. Can anyone recommend a microscope? What sort of defects should I be looking for? Perhaps there is a thread about this already?

EDITED TO ADD:

found it :)
https://www.vinylengine.com/examining-your-stylus.shtml
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Postby fantasia » 15 Nov 2009 13:44

great pics

of elliptical and a "shibata" type shows the difference in contact
between the two can see why an old LP can sound good on a shibata

obvious really

much greater contact area

great pics

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Costs of styli

Postby 1200y3 » 15 Nov 2009 15:39

I guess if I was a musician I could not expect to sell my music on vinyl because each record sold would have to go to a customer that can afford a $500 cartridge, and accept that it may break. Music producers have to know what their records really sound like to the normal LP user.
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Postby robbe_15 » 16 Nov 2009 10:08

Very interesting information concirning stylus types.
I feel here are the members that can give a adequate answer on my question about a conical stylus, the DL 103 in particular.
TRUE or FALSE:Does this sort of stylus damages the vinyl ? :D

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Conical

Postby 1200y3 » 16 Nov 2009 14:19

I have played record hundreds of times with modern cartridges with no wear. (Shures and A/Ts). I would think cartridge companies would be hit with claims if they were damaging records. Denon is a mature comapany. I thought conicals were safest, but the compliance and weight must work correctly. Compliance can be a mysterious issue. VTA has to work correctly on a spherical and the stylus tip must not rock or teeter. Watch the tip closely. You may see what appears to be a piston action vs teetering. You should see the teetering, if it has an incorrect VTA. Actually, just make sure it is vertically adjusted correctly.

The only skepticism I have is that I never recorded the original sound and I am not sure if some of my experiments have left a "bruise" that takes storage time to materialize.
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Postby Dadimo » 16 Nov 2009 14:23

This is an interesting thread here. the fact that the OM40 stylus is an FG design explains the almost 300 USD price :roll: One dealer is selling a shibata design replacement for that cartridge I noticed, and they even mentioned " less noisiness" in reference to the sensitivity to surface noise
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FG, Shibata

Postby 1200y3 » 16 Nov 2009 14:40

Shibatas and FG's are just naturally good at picking up groove noise because it is their accuracy characteristic. If noise is their, it will pick it up. Some styli won't.

I would assume Grado's stylus is an advanced elliptical. It "true ellipsoid" will ensure an equal amount of pressure from the diamond's surface to the centre. The sound is exactly like that. The stereo images are equal in amplitude within an full "playing field" type lateral area. Even some vertical imaging is noticeable on line arrays.
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