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Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

the thin end of the wedge

Postby 1200y3 » 10 Nov 2009 00:57

The square shanks look nice!

The fine line must be more immune to cantilever flexing and twisting because of a better fit.
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Postby Alec124c41 » 10 Nov 2009 04:24

flavio81 wrote:Also you can see that the Shibata seems to be very easy to manufacture!!


Not for me! :lol:
It's OK, I'll just buy them.

Cheers,
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Postby Axon » 10 Nov 2009 05:47

Thanks, this is a really nice summary.
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Postby lini » 10 Nov 2009 06:06

Flavio: Hmmm - are you sure that Denon close-up actually shows a standard 103? Doesn't really look conical to me...

And in my view AT's LinearContact is more like a further developed Shibata/Hughes than like a Vital/FineLine...

Greetings from Munich!

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Postby fantasia » 10 Nov 2009 06:31

Thank you flavio

the info is well presented and easy to understand especially the assumption re actual contact area.

my experience with Shibatas only bonded ones is that they also seem to
play older worn Lps which makes sense given the contact area. They would be in contact with less worn or even fresh vinyl.

I suspect fresh vinyl as very few second hand Lps seem to have been played with exotic stylus shapes, usually nothing better than a conical /spherical.

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Postby Thomas_A » 10 Nov 2009 07:35

Thanks flavio, good review.

A note on the Shibata. I think that the contact area is curved, which has some effects not observed with later fine-lines.
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Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Postby Terry Robinson » 10 Nov 2009 08:06

Evening all.

Thank you so very much Mr. Flavio for your detailed discussion on various gramophone needles.

I never knew so many different types existed -- anyone know about the Ortofon Replicant needle, or the many others that exist. I guess these are still coming in another article.

I consider this article the best I have ever read on this topic: and I have read many over several decades.

Cheers,

Terry.
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Postby flavio81 » 10 Nov 2009 08:44

Thomas_A wrote:Thanks flavio, good review.

A note on the Shibata. I think that the contact area is curved, which has some effects not observed with later fine-lines.


Yes, i mention it, here is a diagram:

Image

But what effects can it have? Has this been studied?
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Postby flavio81 » 10 Nov 2009 08:46

lini wrote:Flavio: Hmmm - are you sure that Denon close-up actually shows a standard 103? Doesn't really look conical to me...

And in my view AT's LinearContact is more like a further developed Shibata/Hughes than like a Vital/FineLine...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini


Hi Dear Lini,

Check out again the diagrams for the Shibata. The Shibata is characterised by two back "cuts" on the diamond, and a teardrop-shaped footprint. Plus a curved vertical profile (see previous post.)

The AT's Linear Contact has none of those characteristics.
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Re: Advanced Stylus Shapes: Pics, discussion, patents.

Postby flavio81 » 10 Nov 2009 08:48

Terry Robinson wrote:I consider this article the best I have ever read on this topic: and I have read many over several decades.


Thanks for the compliments, Terry!!
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Postby lini » 10 Nov 2009 13:39

Flavio: Hence the "further developed": Imagine two more cuts, so the curved part of the true Shibata also looks more like a triangle, but flatter and steeper than on the other side - the result is pretty much what an AT LinearContact looks like. I.e., it's also asymmetrical front to back (which unfortunately isn't well visible in AT's drawing) and actually looks very similar to the tip shape shown in your DL103 pic - which is why I'd rather suspect this not to be a standard DL103, but one of the variants with more sophisticated tip shape.

Greetings from Munich!

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Postby Thomas_A » 10 Nov 2009 14:26

flavio81 wrote:
Thomas_A wrote:Thanks flavio, good review.

A note on the Shibata. I think that the contact area is curved, which has some effects not observed with later fine-lines.


But what effects can it have? Has this been studied?


I've read that the curved align causes a force that pushes the stylus upwards during play, which in turn, may cause a not-so-smooth pattern of groove riding, and in the end, increased wear. The straight line-types do not have the same upward force.
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Postby lini » 10 Nov 2009 14:49

Thomas: I'm not quite sure though, whether this actually comes from the slight curve in the contact area or rather from the not very steeply ascending triangle part...

Greetings from Munich!

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Postby flavio81 » 10 Nov 2009 15:13

Thomas_A wrote:
flavio81 wrote:
Thomas_A wrote:Thanks flavio, good review.

A note on the Shibata. I think that the contact area is curved, which has some effects not observed with later fine-lines.


But what effects can it have? Has this been studied?


I've read that the curved align causes a force that pushes the stylus upwards during play, which in turn, may cause a not-so-smooth pattern of groove riding, and in the end, increased wear. The straight line-types do not have the same upward force.


Hi Thomas!!

This sounds like the "pinch effect" typical of the Sphericals, but this is caused only because the side radius ("r") is too big.

I don't think this would happen with all the other types (elliptical, HE, shibata, etc) which have a narrow "r" radius.

Source?
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Postby flavio81 » 10 Nov 2009 15:24

lini wrote:Flavio: Hence the "further developed": Imagine two more cuts, so the curved part of the true Shibata also looks more like a triangle, but flatter and steeper than on the other side - the result is pretty much what an AT LinearContact looks like. I.e., it's also asymmetrical front to back (which unfortunately isn't well visible in AT's drawing) and actually looks very similar to the tip shape shown in your DL103 pic - which is why I'd rather suspect this not to be a standard DL103, but one of the variants with more sophisticated tip shape.


Very interesting observation on the AT, Manfred. Do you have pics? From the AT's diagram it looked like an Ogura.

And I will remove the Denon pic to avoid creating confusion.
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