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the thin end of the wedge

Postby flavio81 » 16 Nov 2009 15:51

robbe_15 wrote:I feel here are the members that can give a adequate answer on my question about a conical stylus, the DL 103 in particular.
TRUE or FALSE:Does this sort of stylus damages the vinyl?


No, it does not "damage" the vinyl. Enjoy your DL103 and don't worry.
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Re: FG, Shibata

Postby flavio81 » 16 Nov 2009 15:52

1200y3 wrote:Shibatas and FG's are just naturally good at picking up groove noise because it is their accuracy characteristic. If noise is their, it will pick it up. Some styli won't.


Exactly.

1200y3 wrote:I would assume Grado's stylus is an advanced elliptical.


Well for the Prestige line you have 3 "tiers": Black/Red, Blue/Green, and Silver/Gold. They all say "elliptical" but i would bet the more expensive ones have different shaped styli.
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Postby flavio81 » 23 Nov 2009 15:56

Article on the evolution of the stylus shapes!! Just uploaded to the library by JaS!!

https://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewt ... p?p=163995
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Postby Nitrofunk » 03 Dec 2009 21:13

What about the Harmonic Shape? Is it one of the "Tracking friendly"-Shapes?
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Postby flavio81 » 03 Dec 2009 21:54

Nitrofunk wrote:What about the Harmonic Shape? Is it one of the "Tracking friendly"-Shapes?
Peter


Harmonic? Who sells that? Source please.
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Postby Nitrofunk » 03 Dec 2009 23:00

It's the Shape of the Goldring Elite Reference and the Transrotor Merlo - two systems that are basically the same.
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Postby rito25 » 04 Dec 2009 18:53

I assume that a Hyperelliptical is better than any elliptical because it has higher contact area?

This might be slightly offtopic but how much does a tonearm come into in finding the right stylus type?
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How the arm affects it

Postby 1200y3 » 04 Dec 2009 19:26

A finer stylus will/should have a finer cantilever, a smaller compliance, and a lighter tracking force. This will require an arm with ultra low bearing friction and inertia from arm mass. The arm mass (matter) will also send it's noises, that it picks up from its base, into the cartridge. The mass will also damp the high frequency. The finer stylus will also pick up a lower level, meaning that arm resonances (spurious resonances/coloration) will have to be lower as well.
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Postby Nitrofunk » 07 Dec 2009 23:25

Here's a Pic of the Transrotor Merlo "Harmonic" Stylus:

https://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/album_showpage.php?pic_id=11600&user_id=31254

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Postby bauzace50 » 07 Dec 2009 23:27

Nitrofunk,
that stylus looks beautiful!
Regards,
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Re: FG, Shibata

Postby tobes » 09 Dec 2009 05:09

flavio81 wrote:
1200y3 wrote:Shibatas and FG's are just naturally good at picking up groove noise because it is their accuracy characteristic. If noise is their, it will pick it up. Some styli won't.


Exactly.


I don't think this is necessarily so.
My Ortofon A90 has an aggressive shaped Ortofon 'replicant' stylus - yet it is, by a big, big margin, the quietest cartridge in the groove that I've owned.
The Ortofon Jubilee, which has a Shibata stylus, is also very quiet (though not to the extent of the A90).
In my experience record 'noise' has much to do with accurate alignment and the turntable and tonearm with which the cartridge is used.

For the record, I also own the Denon 103R. While the Denon's conical stylus does not emphasise pops and ticks, it most definitely displays higher levels of 'groove noise' in comparison to the more advanced stylus shapes (in the cartridges above). You can clearly notice (in a quiet system) the sound of the stylus coursing through the grooves - a curious effect projected forward of the soundstage. By comparison the A90 is practically silent.

All these cartridges were meticulously setup using the MintLp tractor.
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Postby fantasia » 09 Dec 2009 07:22

I do tend to agree with you, about groove noise.

My Frankenstein Grace F-8 which sports a generic Shure V15-3HE stylus is very quiet as are my two bonded Shibatas the Excel Es70x4 and the At311E/12S. They are low in groove noise and they do different degrees
are able to expose fresh vinyl and play un worn sections of the groove. this is very useful given that i like iam sure most of us actually, now collect second hand LPs given that "NEW" releases on vinyl are not like they were.


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Re: FG, Shibata

Postby flavio81 » 09 Dec 2009 15:26

tobes wrote:
flavio81 wrote:
1200y3 wrote:Shibatas and FG's are just naturally good at picking up groove noise because it is their accuracy characteristic. If noise is their, it will pick it up. Some styli won't.


Exactly.


I don't think this is necessarily so.
My Ortofon A90 has an aggressive shaped Ortofon 'replicant' stylus - yet it is, by a big, big margin, the quietest cartridge in the groove that I've owned.
The Ortofon Jubilee, which has a Shibata stylus, is also very quiet (though not to the extent of the A90).
In my experience record 'noise' has much to do with accurate alignment and the turntable and tonearm with which the cartridge is used.


Nice to hear that!! But what about ticks&pops? I would expect them to be more "intense" with the Replicant shape (than with a conical 103R).
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Re: FG, Shibata

Postby tobes » 10 Dec 2009 00:08

flavio81 wrote:
Nice to hear that!! But what about ticks&pops? I would expect them to be more "intense" with the Replicant shape (than with a conical 103R).


Not at all.
In all respects relating to noise and vinyl artefacts, the A90 is uncannily quiet - ticks and pops are much less noticeable than with the 103R.
Of course it can't eradicate noise completely but, as I said above, it easily has the most silent background of any cartridge I've owned.

The quality of the stylus and how it sits in the groove no doubt has something to do with this. However ticks and pops seem to be more obtrusive as the quality of the cartridge carrier (turntable/arm) is reduced.

What I suspect is happening is that the 'ticks' excite micro-phonics in cartridge/arm/table. The better the cartridge body/tonearm/turntable are able to control/suppress this excitation, the less noticeable they'll be.
My TNT/Phantom is a pretty quiet platform, it probably also helps that the A90's body is designed from the outset to be highly damped and suppress resonance. The A90 was also designed with a flat response - a rising frequency response is not going to assist the noise equation.

The subject of vinyl noise artefacts is much more complex than merely looking at stylus shapes. To some extent the preference of stylus shape may be dependent on the quality of the turntable/arm. Ultimately though, IME, line contact type styli will offer the lowest noise (when setup properly in a quality table/arm).
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Re: FG, Shibata

Postby flavio81 » 10 Dec 2009 00:36

tobes wrote:What I suspect is happening is that the 'ticks' excite micro-phonics in cartridge/arm/table. The better the cartridge body/tonearm/turntable are able to control/suppress this excitation, the less noticeable they'll be.


Hmm... Interesting theory!! :!:
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