Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

the thin end of the wedge
BeekerG
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Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by BeekerG » 14 Feb 2020 11:24

Hi everybody, I'm not new to the turntable game, I remember when all you could get was music on records. I've owned many high end turntables and many many cartridges. One TT i have owned was a Linn LP12 with Alphanson HR100sMCs tonearm with Monster alpha genesis cartridge. Well times have changed, life happens. I was also a club dj for many years using the SL1200 tables with Stanton 680el cartridges.. My current table is just a run of the mill early 70's Japan belt drive turntable that has been highly modified. Lots of sorbothane, and a different motor, a fg servo with speed control. I love my table, i will run it up against just about anything, I may even be brave and run it up against a LP12. I'm currently using my ageing Sumiko Bluepoint, my absolute favorite cartridge, but its ageing. Here is my problem, and i have had this problem with just about every stanton i have ever used. Back in my dj days, with the 680's, we all know what they sounded like with the dj stylus, I even brought my Soundtractor with me to the club and aligned them, very little improvement with the sibalance. My current table came to me with a Pickering TL2S which is the p mount equivilant to the V15 or the Stanton 681EEE. I bought the new stylus from LP Gear. On first impressions I love the sound, believe it or not, it comes mighty close to the Blue Point, close enough to where i could be happy with it. But again, i have the sibilance issues. I dont have the soundtractor anymore, but being it is a p mount, i replaced it in the headhsell that the bluepoint is in. I've used the little protractor LP gear sent me, i double checked it, I found another protractor i had from years back, it aligns. I having the same issues i had back in the day, sibilance. Is there anything that can be done about this? Any help would be greatly appreciated. One more thing, back in the club days, Stanton introduced the Track Master, which was there equilivant the the Ortofon nightclub. Integral cartridge that mounted right to the arm, and was designed specifically for the 1200 arm. Same thing. Mind you, the sibilance is not that bad, but is something i just cant live with. I know some records just have it on there because of bad tape machine bias and so on. Sorry i am so long winded but i want to give as much info as possible.

Alec124c41
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by Alec124c41 » 14 Feb 2020 15:58

Are you using a tracking force in the higher end of the range?

Cheers,
Alec

BeekerG
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by BeekerG » 15 Feb 2020 00:49

Stanton recommended 1.3g, but am going at 1.5

KentT
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by KentT » 15 Feb 2020 02:45

Generic styli for this aren't as good as originals are most of the time, and they require heavier tracking forces. Track on the middle to high end of the recommended force range, and you should do better.

BeekerG
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by BeekerG » 15 Feb 2020 12:19

Thanks, I'll give it a try. I track my blue point at 2g, maybe i will start there and see how it reacts. I've had this issue with stanton ever since stanton was in business. and even then, even when using the 680el's for dj use in the clubs, i never exceded 1.5 g. so ill see what happens, i do hope it helps, i love this cartridge, i love the sound, it comes so close to the blue point it's scary. Thanks

BeekerG
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by BeekerG » 15 Feb 2020 13:26

I think my Blue Point met it's match, i'm tracking the Pickering at 2g now and am using the Lp gear stereohedron version of the stylus.. this i can say, i will hunt and search for a oem stanton, stylus. Wow is all i can really say, going up to 2g, seams to have solved it.. I still have some more tesing to do, the particular record i am using is a total nightmare when it comes to the s word. But has calmed down, when playing this particular record on the Blue Point, in some places, you can hear the BP try to do it, and now with the Pickering at 2g, im some spots, just like the BP, it tries to do it, slightly more then the BP, but is something i can now live with. I have to try it out on some good vinyl. Thanks so much for your help

BeekerG
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by BeekerG » 15 Feb 2020 18:14

I think i'm in love now. i do have a question, just an opinion on your part, I do know the pickering i am using is the p mount version of V15 or the 681eee. I have to wonder, what the stylus would sound like in the 680el body, from my understanding, the bodies are the same with the exception of the eee being the pick of the litter, but with the non original stylus, that would all be out the window, even i were to get a stanton stylus, there would be no guarantee it would meet the spec of the original eee, but this is picking at straws. Please correct me if i'm wrong on this You know back in the club days, even with the bad s words, those stantons just had something over just about everything else, especially when we got the trackmasters. the eliptical's on them were much smaller then the ones on the 680el's and were able to get down in the groove much better. I wish i just would have followed my instinct back then and tracked it heavier. about 15 years ago, i bought off ebay a Thorens TD160 with a 681eee and good stereohedron stylus, i dint pay it any mind and sold it, I'm kicking myself right now. Sorry for being long winded so ill just leave it here. Whats your opinion of the 680 body with the lp gear stylus, or just leave the pickering?

Alec124c41
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by Alec124c41 » 15 Feb 2020 18:34

If you are balancing the arm, setting dial to 0, then setting VTF on the dial, don't forget that the brush is 1 gram, so th get 1.5 grams on the stylus, you have to set 2.5 grams.
Mistracking, because of too llittle tracking force, can damage your records.

Cheers,
Alec

BeekerG
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by BeekerG » 15 Feb 2020 19:28

the brush has been removed well rather it just came off the lp gear stylus and they still have yet to answer my question as to why. and am using a shure stylus force gauge. 2 g seams to be working well

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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by wolfie62 » 15 Feb 2020 23:30

I have both the Pickering XV15-1200E and the Stanton 681EEE. I have original styli for both, but I don’t use them; saving them.

I use the 4822-DEE stylus. I get no sibilance at all. Clean, well focused sound always.

I always use the Conrad Hoffman protractor for Lofgren B DIN or Stevenson A DIN, depending on headshell slot room.

Proper alignment must be your starting point. No exceptions.

With 1.2 grams on the stylus, (brush 1.1) I get clean sound from lead in to within 1/4” of the label. Even using a 4606-DEX Pfanstiehl I get clean sound, just not as good of detail.

Alignment.

BeekerG
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by BeekerG » 16 Feb 2020 10:33

I spent all day with it, i went from 2g, back down to 1.5 and everywhere between, I ended up at 2.2g and this thing opened up wide, deep bass, high highs, no bad s words. looks like 2.2 is the magic number for me and my table. Thanks very much for the advice.

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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by mamakasou » 16 Feb 2020 18:42

wolfie62 wrote:
15 Feb 2020 23:30

With 1.2 grams on the stylus, (brush 1.1) I get clean sound from lead in to within 1/4” of the label. Even using a 4606-DEX Pfanstiehl I get clean sound, just not as good of detail.
If you're running it with the brush, 1.2grams total VTF is a bit too low.

For proper tracking, use of the brush necessitates an addition of 1 extra gram on total VTF.

So if the target VTF for the tip is 1.2 grams, you'd need to apply a total of 2.2 grams.

wolfie62
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by wolfie62 » 16 Feb 2020 19:59

mamakasou wrote:
16 Feb 2020 18:42
wolfie62 wrote:
15 Feb 2020 23:30

With 1.2 grams on the stylus, (brush 1.1) I get clean sound from lead in to within 1/4” of the label. Even using a 4606-DEX Pfanstiehl I get clean sound, just not as good of detail.
If you're running it with the brush, 1.2grams total VTF is a bit too low.

For proper tracking, use of the brush necessitates an addition of 1 extra gram on total VTF.

So if the target VTF for the tip is 1.2 grams, you'd need to apply a total of 2.2 grams.
Do the math. That’s EXACTLY what I just said.

1.2 grams for the stylus, 1.1 grams for the brush. The 1.1 grams for the brush is not for the stylus. 1.2 grams for the stylus is not for the brush. Each has its own required force. Do the math. You must have force on the brush before you can have any force on the stylus. The total combined tracking force is not the force on the stylus.

That’s why I separated the required forces. 1.1 grams on the brush, 1.2 grams on the stylus. Do the math. Read what I wrote.

wolfie62
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by wolfie62 » 16 Feb 2020 21:38

Perhaps not. I was clearly referring to the styli I use that DO have brushes, and no sibilance issues. Even Pfanstiehl styli.

Simple math. Easy alignments. Great reproduction of sound.

wolfie62
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Re: Stanton 681EEE Sibalance issues, Please help

Post by wolfie62 » 16 Feb 2020 21:55

BeekerG wrote:
15 Feb 2020 19:28
the brush has been removed well rather it just came off the lp gear stylus and they still have yet to answer my question as to why. and am using a shure stylus force gauge. 2 g seams to be working well
No harm, no foul. LPG recommends removing the brush for best sound.

I have the VL stylus for the 681EEE. Tracks at 1.5 grams, + 1.1 grams for the brush. It’s a very good sounding stylus. The molded tabs that retain the brush hinge are less prominent than on the original stylus, so it separates easily on the LPG stylus grip.

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