Technics EPC-205CIIL

the thin end of the wedge
nicklaskarlsson81
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Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by nicklaskarlsson81 » 21 Dec 2019 23:58

Hello.

I got a Technics EPC-205CIIL cart with the Technics SL-1310MK2 I bought. I already have two good carts, Audio-Technica VM540ML and Ortofon VMS 30 MKII, but I heard the Technics cart is good. I don't think the stylus is in the best shape though, so I have ordered a shibata for it. But I can't seem to find the info on what tracking force I should use. Is it 1.25grams with a plus/minus 0.25grams that a manual in japanese for the EPC-205CIIS says? Also a manual for EPC-205CMK3 says the same tracking force. Thats the only manuals I could find here. Is this the correct tracking force with the stylus I ordered?

Collux
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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by Collux » 22 Dec 2019 05:22

I would try the audio-technica tracking force recommendations for the VM series first.
1.8-2.2g (2.0g nominal)
These are found on the last page of the AT VM Cartridge brochure:
https://eu.audio-technica.com/resources ... ges_EN.pdf

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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by DeepEnd » 22 Dec 2019 08:08

For the tracking force, unless it is a Technics original, I would contact the replacement stylus supplier/manufacturer as it will depend on the compliance of the elastomer used during assembly of the stylus.

Many are the same as the originals but some are not. For example all Jico’s SAS replacement styli are 1.25g even if the original was 1.8g and others sometimes need more than the originals.

nicklaskarlsson81
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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by nicklaskarlsson81 » 22 Dec 2019 09:44

Collux wrote:
22 Dec 2019 05:22
I would try the audio-technica tracking force recommendations for the VM series first.
1.8-2.2g (2.0g nominal)
These are found on the last page of the AT VM Cartridge brochure:
https://eu.audio-technica.com/resources ... ges_EN.pdf
I don't know if you misread or something, but why would I use the settings for a new Audio-Technica cart on a Vintage Technics cart? I am sure you know what you are talking about, but I feel like that is not a good recommendation. Could you please explain why you give that recommendation?

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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by nicklaskarlsson81 » 22 Dec 2019 09:46

DeepEnd wrote:
22 Dec 2019 08:08
For the tracking force, unless it is a Technics original, I would contact the replacement stylus supplier/manufacturer as it will depend on the compliance of the elastomer used during assembly of the stylus.

Many are the same as the originals but some are not. For example all Jico’s SAS replacement styli are 1.25g even if the original was 1.8g and others sometimes need more than the originals.
Ah, thank you. I have already emailed the seller a couple days ago, but havent gotten an answer yet.

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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by balky » 22 Dec 2019 12:32

nicklaskarlsson81 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 09:46
DeepEnd wrote:
22 Dec 2019 08:08
For the tracking force, unless it is a Technics original, I would contact the replacement stylus supplier/manufacturer as it will depend on the compliance of the elastomer used during assembly of the stylus.

Many are the same as the originals but some are not. For example all Jico’s SAS replacement styli are 1.25g even if the original was 1.8g and others sometimes need more than the originals.
Ah, thank you. I have already emailed the seller a couple days ago, but havent gotten an answer yet.
I for one, didn't know that there is a replacement stylus for the EPC-205 CI II that has a Shibata tip...
Would you be so kind to provide the link to the web shop?

I only know of the expensive Jico Boron/SAS and the cheap Tonar Aluminum / Elliptical replacements.

nicklaskarlsson81
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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by nicklaskarlsson81 » 22 Dec 2019 13:58

balky wrote:
22 Dec 2019 12:32
nicklaskarlsson81 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 09:46
DeepEnd wrote:
22 Dec 2019 08:08
For the tracking force, unless it is a Technics original, I would contact the replacement stylus supplier/manufacturer as it will depend on the compliance of the elastomer used during assembly of the stylus.

Many are the same as the originals but some are not. For example all Jico’s SAS replacement styli are 1.25g even if the original was 1.8g and others sometimes need more than the originals.
Ah, thank you. I have already emailed the seller a couple days ago, but havent gotten an answer yet.
I for one, didn't know that there is a replacement stylus for the EPC-205 CI II that has a Shibata tip...
Would you be so kind to provide the link to the web shop?

I only know of the expensive Jico Boron/SAS and the cheap Tonar Aluminum / Elliptical replacements.
Yeah, i dont know if the jico is worth the cash. This is a link to the Swedish site I bought it from, it's the one at the bottom left, for 1700 sek: https://www.svalander.se/shoppen/tillbe ... ege/pickup
I think this is the same: https://www.eltim.eu/en/replacement-sty ... 7-20001095

balky
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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by balky » 22 Dec 2019 14:35

nicklaskarlsson81 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 13:58
balky wrote:
22 Dec 2019 12:32
nicklaskarlsson81 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 09:46


Ah, thank you. I have already emailed the seller a couple days ago, but havent gotten an answer yet.
I for one, didn't know that there is a replacement stylus for the EPC-205 CI II that has a Shibata tip...
Would you be so kind to provide the link to the web shop?

I only know of the expensive Jico Boron/SAS and the cheap Tonar Aluminum / Elliptical replacements.
Yeah, i dont know if the jico is worth the cash. This is a link to the Swedish site I bought it from, it's the one at the bottom left, for 1700 sek: https://www.svalander.se/shoppen/tillbe ... ege/pickup
I think this is the same: https://www.eltim.eu/en/replacement-sty ... 7-20001095
Thanks a lot...

The second link is actually with the original replacement stylus from Technics... amazing for things you can find back these days...
Never thought it would still be possible to find the original.

Thanks once more

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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by Collux » 22 Dec 2019 16:05

nicklaskarlsson81 wrote:
22 Dec 2019 09:44
I don't know if you misread or something, but why would I use the settings for a new Audio-Technica cart on a Vintage Technics cart?
My bad. Yes misread.........

I assumed (wrongly!), you intended to try and run a VM540 stylus on the Technics EPC-205CIIL?

What I am simply saying is, use the recommended VTF for the specific stylus being used.

billshurv
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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by billshurv » 22 Dec 2019 20:53

I don't think there was a shibata from the factory. Stock were all hyper elliptical at least in the manuals on here.

scho2684
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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by scho2684 » 22 Dec 2019 21:29

Oh, I wish I had one of these...
I think they look quite nice, but also these where not bad at all from what I've read...

billshurv
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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by billshurv » 22 Dec 2019 22:21

I bought a 205CII and CIIL a couple of years ago. The IIL Bobby now has (as he liked it very very much) and the std needs a stylus. ED2s come up on ebay but are getting pricey now. Eventually I'll work out which way to jump on that.

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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by nicklaskarlsson81 » 22 Dec 2019 23:14

Yeah, i am glad I checked up on the cart. Considering it came with the table, the price was very good to say the least, 380 euro. Only I will have to use my Monacor SLA-35 to amplify the signal, output is half of the VM540ML, and the VMS 30 MKII is 5mv

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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by Sunwire » 23 Dec 2019 03:49

The correct tracking force for the original stylus is 1.25 g +/- 0.25 g

If using an aftermarket stylus, check with stylus maker.

The original stylus for this cartridge was not a Shibata and not a hyperelliptical.

All the top Technics cartridges of that time, including the EPC-205CII-L, used nude mounted 0.2x0.7 elliptical diamonds.
The correct stylus is the EPS-205EX (titanium cantilever). Other needles that will fit are EPS-205ED (titanium cantilever) and EPS-207ED (aluminum cantilever). I believe the EPS-54STED will also work, but have not confirmed it.

The EPS-50STED (for the EPC-200C) will NOT fit.

The EPS-205EX and EPS-205ED are significantly different, however. The ED version has a weaker magnet and is designed for the higher inductance cartridge bodies (EPC-205CII-S and EPC-205CII-H). The EX version has a stronger magnet that can be used in any of the 205 bodies. Even with the stronger magnet EX needle, the output of the II-L (low inductance) body is only 1.8 mV, so the output with the ED needle might require use of a step-up device to get adequate voltage.
Check the VinylEngine database and do a search through the forum messages for "EPC-205" and "EPS-205". You'll find some threads with more information.

The "second link" up above is NOT to an original Technics stylus. They would never sell it that inexpensively. And the original was NOT a Shibata.

There is an original Technics Shibata stylus that will fit the cartridge body, but it's a bonded Shibata, not as good as the original nude elliptical.
It's model EPS-405QD, which was designed for the four channel cartridge EPC-405C.

If you can find an original EPS-205EX, they are worth buying, but prices are going up a lot.
The best new stylus is the Jico SAS.
I have a couple of original EPS-205EX needles, the EPS-405QD, and both sapphire and boron cantilever versions of the Jico SAS.
I think the Boron SAS is the best buy. It's very good.
I don't really hear any advantage to the sapphire. And the ruby is just a different color of sapphire, so I see no point in spending more for that.

This is the one I recommend from Jico: EPS-205EX SAS/B E005042

This thread might be interesting:
viewtopic.php?t=45604

All that being said, I think the Audio-Technica VM540ML is probably as good or very close to the EPC-205CII-L with the SAS stylus.
I don't own an Audio-Technica VM540ML, but I own an Audio Technica AT-155 LC, which is similar, but actually has a heavier stylus, but superior beryllium cantilever compared to the VM540ML.
I think the AT-155 LC is very close to the performance of the EPC-205CII-L. I'm not sure which one I would choose if I had to keep only one.

nicklaskarlsson81
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Re: Technics EPC-205CIIL

Post by nicklaskarlsson81 » 23 Dec 2019 23:52

Sunwire wrote:
23 Dec 2019 03:49
The correct tracking force for the original stylus is 1.25 g +/- 0.25 g

If using an aftermarket stylus, check with stylus maker.

The original stylus for this cartridge was not a Shibata and not a hyperelliptical.

All the top Technics cartridges of that time, including the EPC-205CII-L, used nude mounted 0.2x0.7 elliptical diamonds.
The correct stylus is the EPS-205EX (titanium cantilever). Other needles that will fit are EPS-205ED (titanium cantilever) and EPS-207ED (aluminum cantilever). I believe the EPS-54STED will also work, but have not confirmed it.

The EPS-50STED (for the EPC-200C) will NOT fit.

The EPS-205EX and EPS-205ED are significantly different, however. The ED version has a weaker magnet and is designed for the higher inductance cartridge bodies (EPC-205CII-S and EPC-205CII-H). The EX version has a stronger magnet that can be used in any of the 205 bodies. Even with the stronger magnet EX needle, the output of the II-L (low inductance) body is only 1.8 mV, so the output with the ED needle might require use of a step-up device to get adequate voltage.
Check the VinylEngine database and do a search through the forum messages for "EPC-205" and "EPS-205". You'll find some threads with more information.

The "second link" up above is NOT to an original Technics stylus. They would never sell it that inexpensively. And the original was NOT a Shibata.

There is an original Technics Shibata stylus that will fit the cartridge body, but it's a bonded Shibata, not as good as the original nude elliptical.
It's model EPS-405QD, which was designed for the four channel cartridge EPC-405C.

If you can find an original EPS-205EX, they are worth buying, but prices are going up a lot.
The best new stylus is the Jico SAS.
I have a couple of original EPS-205EX needles, the EPS-405QD, and both sapphire and boron cantilever versions of the Jico SAS.
I think the Boron SAS is the best buy. It's very good.
I don't really hear any advantage to the sapphire. And the ruby is just a different color of sapphire, so I see no point in spending more for that.

This is the one I recommend from Jico: EPS-205EX SAS/B E005042

This thread might be interesting:
viewtopic.php?t=45604

All that being said, I think the Audio-Technica VM540ML is probably as good or very close to the EPC-205CII-L with the SAS stylus.
I don't own an Audio-Technica VM540ML, but I own an Audio Technica AT-155 LC, which is similar, but actually has a heavier stylus, but superior beryllium cantilever compared to the VM540ML.
I think the AT-155 LC is very close to the performance of the EPC-205CII-L. I'm not sure which one I would choose if I had to keep only one.
Thank you for all your tips, very appreciated 😀 that jico is only €30 more than the stylus i ordered, so thats not much. Since you seem to know what you are talking about, which of the two styluses at the bottom here do you think is best and matches the EPC-205CIIL the best? Click the blue circle with an i in the middle: https://www.svalander.se/shoppen/tillbe ... ege/pickup

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