Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

the thin end of the wedge

Which is a better option

Sumiko Rainier
3
100%
Ortofon Red
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 3

obi_juan85
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Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by obi_juan85 » 25 Oct 2019 19:35

Hey fellas,

Currently I have a U-Turn TT equiped with a Grado Black cartridge, I'm thinking of making an upgrade and I'm thinking an option between Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier. Could you please advice me on which you consider is better and why. Thanks.

Collux
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by Collux » 25 Oct 2019 23:00

You can pick up the 2M Red for less money than the Rainier.
That said, the Sumiko offers a better styli upgrade path than the Red.
You can go from Rainier>Olympus>Moonstone.
https://www.sumikoaudio.net/en-us/our-b ... ter-series

With 2M Red, Blue is the only upgrade.
(Whilst Bronze & Black will fit, they are not optimal in a Red/Blue cart)

There is quite a bit of discussion on the Sumiko here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=113710&hilit=Rainier

obi_juan85
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by obi_juan85 » 26 Oct 2019 01:01

Collux wrote:
25 Oct 2019 23:00
You can pick up the 2M Red for less money than the Rainier.
That said, the Sumiko offers a better styli upgrade path than the Red.
You can go from Rainier>Olympus>Moonstone.
https://www.sumikoaudio.net/en-us/our-b ... ter-series

With 2M Red, Blue is the only upgrade.
(Whilst Bronze & Black will fit, they are not optimal in a Red/Blue cart)

There is quite a bit of discussion on the Sumiko here:
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=113710&hilit=Rainier

Thanks Collux. Duly noted.

ravelax
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by ravelax » 26 Oct 2019 05:11

Haven't even heard the Sumiko but I dislike the 2M Red intensely. If you have a light tonearm, stay away from it. In a heavier arm, it'll probably work better.

Erin1
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by Erin1 » 26 Oct 2019 09:59

I think neither is an upgrade over the Grado Black.

If you have a Grado with perfect channel balance and a diamond that is mounted straight, you have an awesome cartridge.

I formerly owned a Grado Black with a green stylus. I digitally recorded a few album's with it years ago.

I now own an AT150Mlx (now discontinued sadly)

The exact same album played in the AT150Mlx does not sound as good as my recording of the same albums with the Grado Black.

I don't say this lightly. Nor is it a matter of personal preference.

The Grado Black does some very special things.

I still love my AT150MLX but it's better for classical music where the detail and fine tracking of beautiful natural accoustic instruments is appreciated.

For pop or rock. Jazz, or Prog, I think a well performing example of a Grado Black /Green is all you need.

The detail of a Grado is nothing to scoff at or dismiss. They are very good cartridges.

Unless for some specific reason you hate the Grado sound, I would keep it and perhaps buy a red or green stylus for it.
I highly recommend you watch this review of the Grado red and read the comments of happy red users

https://youtu.be/HX3hPt5mGjE

I personally though I haven't heard this Sumiko, I am familiar with the generator and I absolutely cannot stand it, it has almost no frequencies above 18khz and stereo separation is not good.

The Ortofon red is absolutely not an upgrade over a Grado Black. Not at all! No way.

Both the options you have are more side steps but not "upgrades"

obi_juan85
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by obi_juan85 » 26 Oct 2019 13:27

ravelax wrote:
26 Oct 2019 05:11
Haven't even heard the Sumiko but I dislike the 2M Red intensely. If you have a light tonearm, stay away from it. In a heavier arm, it'll probably work better.
I've heard two type of people, you either love the cartridge or you hate it. The U Turn is an entry level TT and I guess it's tone arm is more on the light side. Thanks for you feedback will definitely consider it.

obi_juan85
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by obi_juan85 » 26 Oct 2019 13:32

Erin1 wrote:
26 Oct 2019 09:59
I think neither is an upgrade over the Grado Black.

If you have a Grado with perfect channel balance and a diamond that is mounted straight, you have an awesome cartridge.

I formerly owned a Grado Black with a green stylus. I digitally recorded a few album's with it years ago.

I now own an AT150Mlx (now discontinued sadly)

The exact same album played in the AT150Mlx does not sound as good as my recording of the same albums with the Grado Black.

I don't say this lightly. Nor is it a matter of personal preference.

The Grado Black does some very special things.

I still love my AT150MLX but it's better for classical music where the detail and fine tracking of beautiful natural accoustic instruments is appreciated.

For pop or rock. Jazz, or Prog, I think a well performing example of a Grado Black /Green is all you need.

The detail of a Grado is nothing to scoff at or dismiss. They are very good cartridges.

Unless for some specific reason you hate the Grado sound, I would keep it and perhaps buy a red or green stylus for it.
I highly recommend you watch this review of the Grado red and read the comments of happy red users

https://youtu.be/HX3hPt5mGjE

I personally though I haven't heard this Sumiko, I am familiar with the generator and I absolutely cannot stand it, it has almost no frequencies above 18khz and stereo separation is not good.

The Ortofon red is absolutely not an upgrade over a Grado Black. Not at all! No way.

Both the options you have are more side steps but not "upgrades"
Thanks Erin, you're probably right. I haven't considered only upgrading the stylus. I don't hate the Grado but I've definitely have heard better. I'll take a look at the stylus upgrade. Thanks!!

Erin1
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by Erin1 » 26 Oct 2019 13:47

obi_juan85 wrote:
26 Oct 2019 13:32

Thanks Erin, you're probably right. I haven't considered only upgrading the stylus. I don't hate the Grado but I've definitely have heard better. I'll take a look at the stylus upgrade. Thanks!!
Well it's just my opinion, but I do have a fair amount of experience over many years with moving magnet cartridges. I'm not a moving coil guy.

When you say you've heard better, well what was better? That would be your starting point.

If you heard the Ortofon or Sumiko on your turntable and you thought they were better then you have your answer.

But if not, you have to recall what cartridge sounded better and consider buying one of those (whatever it was).
So long as it will suit your light weight tonearm, which is suited to high compliance cartridges.

Straker62
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by Straker62 » 26 Oct 2019 14:02

obi_juan85 wrote:
26 Oct 2019 13:32


Thanks Erin, you're probably right. I haven't considered only upgrading the stylus. I don't hate the Grado but I've definitely have heard better. I'll take a look at the stylus upgrade. Thanks!!
I think that you can have a much better sound upgrading to a a series 2 prestige Grado cartridge, like the Grado Black 2 or Grado Red 2: the series 2 seems to have a really improved generator compared to the series 1. Obviously you can consider also dthe other upper models, like Silver2 or Gold2.

Erin1
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by Erin1 » 26 Oct 2019 14:16

I always say this so I'll say it again.
I'd you want a genuine upgrade, get an AT VM540ML. It's double the price at $250 but, it's got a microline stylus which will track every record perfectly, and it has a flat frequency response.

It will sound neutral, and highly detailed.
It's a thinner sound compared to a Grado. The bass won't be as prominent. It won't have that liquid magic midrange of the Grado, and the seductive highs.

Some people don't like the AT sound. Some say it sounds like a CD well that's because it has a neutral presentation and a flat frequency response! Ultimately, that's what high fidelity is about. But some people don't want that, they like some flavour and spice... and neither way is right or wrong. It's about what makes you enjoy the music and your audio system.

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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by wojtekf » 26 Oct 2019 15:05

ravelax wrote:
26 Oct 2019 05:11
Haven't even heard the Sumiko but I dislike the 2M Red intensely. If you have a light tonearm, stay away from it. In a heavier arm, it'll probably work better.
2M Red has compliance of 20 µm/mN. This means you should rather keep the total mass around 15-20 g, no more. Heavier arm will probably not fit in that range...

I would also suggest Sumiko, I am not a fan of 2M Red...

obi_juan85
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by obi_juan85 » 27 Oct 2019 13:50

Straker62 wrote:
26 Oct 2019 14:02
obi_juan85 wrote:
26 Oct 2019 13:32


Thanks Erin, you're probably right. I haven't considered only upgrading the stylus. I don't hate the Grado but I've definitely have heard better. I'll take a look at the stylus upgrade. Thanks!!
I think that you can have a much better sound upgrading to a a series 2 prestige Grado cartridge, like the Grado Black 2 or Grado Red 2: the series 2 seems to have a really improved generator compared to the series 1. Obviously you can consider also dthe other upper models, like Silver2 or Gold2.
Thanks Straker. I was considering other cartridge as I live in Colombia and there are not many options. But you're probably right. I'm looking for comparisons online to see what should I do. Thanks!

obi_juan85
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by obi_juan85 » 27 Oct 2019 13:51

Erin1 wrote:
26 Oct 2019 14:16
I always say this so I'll say it again.
I'd you want a genuine upgrade, get an AT VM540ML. It's double the price at $250 but, it's got a microline stylus which will track every record perfectly, and it has a flat frequency response.

It will sound neutral, and highly detailed.
It's a thinner sound compared to a Grado. The bass won't be as prominent. It won't have that liquid magic midrange of the Grado, and the seductive highs.

Some people don't like the AT sound. Some say it sounds like a CD well that's because it has a neutral presentation and a flat frequency response! Ultimately, that's what high fidelity is about. But some people don't want that, they like some flavour and spice... and neither way is right or wrong. It's about what makes you enjoy the music and your audio system.
Thanks Erin. Will take a look at the cartridge you're suggesting. Thanks!

obi_juan85
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by obi_juan85 » 27 Oct 2019 13:52

wojtekf wrote:
26 Oct 2019 15:05
ravelax wrote:
26 Oct 2019 05:11
Haven't even heard the Sumiko but I dislike the 2M Red intensely. If you have a light tonearm, stay away from it. In a heavier arm, it'll probably work better.
2M Red has compliance of 20 µm/mN. This means you should rather keep the total mass around 15-20 g, no more. Heavier arm will probably not fit in that range...

I would also suggest Sumiko, I am not a fan of 2M Red...
Thanks Wojtekf. It seems that the Ortofon is a love/hate cartridge. If I end up choosing one of those two will probably be the Sumiko. Thanks!

wojtekf
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Re: Ortofon 2M Red or Sumiko MM Rainier

Post by wojtekf » 27 Oct 2019 15:35

obi_juan85 wrote:
27 Oct 2019 13:52
It seems that the Ortofon is a love/hate cartridge.
Well, it's probably this specific line – 2M.
I have other cartridges made by Ortofon and I am very happy with their sonic signatures: Rondo Bronze, Salsa, MC15 super.

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