Golden era MMs in the 21st century

the thin end of the wedge
Post Reply
billshurv
long player
long player
Posts: 2451
Joined: 16 Oct 2014 15:38

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by billshurv » 04 Oct 2019 09:09

wolfie62 wrote:
04 Oct 2019 02:36
[
Yup, I’ll continue wasting my time enjoying all the non-AT carts and styli, which are plentiful and rare. Meanwhile, everyone else concentrate on AT and Signet! It’ll drive up the prices and demand, way above those of us who enjoy the “lesser” cartridges that successfully competed with, bettered, and even outsold AT!
How can something be plentiful and rare?

As for driving up prices, have you seen what high end ADC goes for on ebay? The cost puts them outside my personal comfort zone at the moment. At least until I can confirm someone can retip them locally. XLM and QLM seem to be more affordable, but which are the ones to look for value and performance?

This thread should be about all great historic cartridges and I don't think there was any goal of hijack by sunwire. But he has a point, if only for stopping the obsession that it is possible to get into with collecting.

No one has mentioned shure V15V with Jico SAS yet, which intrigues me as reports are that it's still near the top of the hill in that configuration. Its another combo outside my personal comfort zone for now.

dagfinn
member
member
Norway
Posts: 212
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by dagfinn » 04 Oct 2019 10:04

Speaking of old and new, the Excel QD700 comes in too many flavours for me to grasp. It seems to live on today in the Sumiko Rainier, at least. Unfortunately I haven't had opportunity to listen to it - and stylus is broken. I know the Jico SAS1 in boron, ruby and sapphire can fit, - but is it worth it? I know little about the sound and all it's other incarnations.
excel_2_4.jpg
(95.08 KiB) Downloaded 105 times
Was the Excel body the base for all the other incarnations, and were there different versions?

billshurv
long player
long player
Posts: 2451
Joined: 16 Oct 2014 15:38

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by billshurv » 04 Oct 2019 10:59

This excel generator is another of the 'evergreens' joining ortofon and AT (and Shure till they closed down). No one has ever quite worked out the variants of this but there will be many tweaks. The RS (radiospares for those of us of a certain age) one I have taken apart had rather fetching colour coding of the coils in green and red. There is room to mod them I am sure and squeeze more performance out.

dagfinn
member
member
Norway
Posts: 212
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by dagfinn » 04 Oct 2019 11:49

I'll chip in my last two carts since you mention Ortofon.
Ortofon_F15mkII_2M_Red.jpg
(90.48999999999999 KiB) Downloaded 106 times
The F15MkII and the 2M Red, early and late stage of Ortofon.
Ortofon_F15mkII_2M_Red_rear.jpg
(95.19 KiB) Downloaded 104 times
I don't like the tiny space for connectors on the 2M. Missing in the picture is the OM, a pretty important part of Ortofon history and still in great avail. I'm curious of how a Bronze stylus sounds on the Red body...?

I have only a Tonar stylus for the F15, but I know there are at least some interesting NOS out there, like the D 20 FL nude FineLine - but at a price. Seems NOS is priced on level with current styli or higher, for a large part. So I wonder about the F15 mkII body vs VMS20 or 30 - are there differences, big/small? Also I have to add, my F15 is without keylock, an easy modification to the plastic guide gate, so it accepts all styli in Ortofon VMS series.

Sorry, one more:
diagonal.jpg
(58.01 KiB) Downloaded 100 times
Can I have a MicroLine on the DL-103? My lps have had all the regular 103 it can take :lol: Edit:oops, off topic, sorry.
Ok, that's all, thanks for all responses...
Last edited by dagfinn on 04 Oct 2019 12:38, edited 1 time in total.

billshurv
long player
long player
Posts: 2451
Joined: 16 Oct 2014 15:38

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by billshurv » 04 Oct 2019 12:02

The reason for the small spacing is that the 2M is really an OM in a bodykit. The generator is made with the same tooling just then a different moulding over the top. You can put OM stylii on a 2M.

Ortofon do make new stylii for the FF, bonded elliptical but a choice of 2 compliances. Other than that I no nothing about the early VMS range.

chgc
senior member
senior member
Posts: 382
Joined: 20 Jan 2018 20:54

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by chgc » 04 Oct 2019 15:37

I fear I may have become a collector, but I try not to be too obsessive about it (I’m declaring a moratorium on new acquisitions). Potential harm can also be reduced by being selective and focusing on inexpensive items.

I don’t know if it’s great or historic, but the Technics P24/P30/etc. line is cheap and can sound good, in my experience. I succumbed to the temptation to get a boron Jico SAS for one (hence the moratorium) and was disappointed to discover that it did not conform to the T4P standard (cantilever too long). Since it wouldn’t be a good match for my Technics linear tracker, I decided to try it on a regular turntable with an adapter, and I have been very pleased so far. To my unsophisticated ears, it sounds as good as my AT440MLb for about the same cost. A broad range of replacement styli is available for the Technics 718 line, but probably best to avoid the Jico SAS if you have a p-mount tonearm.

BMRR
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
United States of America
Posts: 5777
Joined: 23 Aug 2013 03:48

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by BMRR » 04 Oct 2019 16:14

The too-long cantilever is also an issue with all of their SAS styli for Shure carts. It's a shame they couldn't trim the cantilever by .5mm or 1mm or whatever it is.

I'm still hoping/praying that JICO will come to their senses and release SAS styli for Pickering/Stanton carts. They'd sell like hotcakes!

Ottermel
senior member
senior member
Canada
Posts: 718
Joined: 19 Mar 2012 20:42
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by Ottermel » 04 Oct 2019 18:01

Talking about old ones:
Well, I have an Ortofon M15E Super on my old TD 125MKII with fairly low hours plus, I have a spare stylus. These were quite good cartridges 42 years ago!

Sunwire
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 2057
Joined: 07 Oct 2004 21:54
Location: New York

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by Sunwire » 05 Oct 2019 04:46

wolfie - I certainly didn't mean to "hijack" this thread for Audio Technica lovers. In fact, my first post also put in a strong plug for the Technics EPC-205c series.
If you re-read my post, you'll see I was just giving advice to newbies wondering where to start. I am happy to help them save some money and aggravation. Buying a groovy old classic cartridge and then discovering that good quality replacement needles are rare and expensive can be a pain.

I would never discourage anyone else from trying other brands of classic carts.
In my own collection, I have a bunch of Shures, a B&O, a couple of Ortofons, a Stanton, a Pioneer, a Denon, a Dynavector, several ADCs. But my favorites for sound and looks and for affordable, high quality stylus options are definitely the ATs, Signets, and Technics.

Collux
senior member
senior member
Australia
Posts: 562
Joined: 01 Oct 2017 23:54
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by Collux » 05 Oct 2019 07:15

chgc wrote:
04 Oct 2019 15:37
I fear I may have become a collector, but I try not to be too obsessive about it (I’m declaring a moratorium on new acquisitions). Potential harm can also be reduced by being selective and focusing on inexpensive items.
I think this is good advice.......
- I myself, need to take similar action. :)

Collux
senior member
senior member
Australia
Posts: 562
Joined: 01 Oct 2017 23:54
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by Collux » 05 Oct 2019 08:00

Now, to keep these oldies going; you need styli !

I have compiled a listing of all the ViVid Line offerings from LP Gear, for those interested.
- the ViVid Line profile, may not be a Shibata or Jico SAS but it seems to have been well received.
(Just PM me with an email address, if you would like the associated Excel file.)

Disclaimer:
- The data is provide with due care, "as is". (No resposibilty is to be taken for any errors or omissions.)
- FYI I am in no way associated with LP Gear.
Attachments
Vid1.jpg
(171.79 KiB) Downloaded 61 times
Vid2.jpg
(292.28 KiB) Downloaded 59 times
Vid3.jpg
(173.53 KiB) Downloaded 57 times
Vid4.jpg
(201 KiB) Downloaded 58 times

33na3rd
member
member
United States of America
Posts: 65
Joined: 21 Nov 2011 20:25

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by 33na3rd » 05 Oct 2019 19:37

Collux wrote:
05 Oct 2019 08:00
Now, to keep these oldies going; you need styli !

I have compiled a listing of all the ViVid Line offerings from LP Gear, for those interested.
- the ViVid Line profile, may not be a Shibata or Jico SAS but it seems to have been well received.
(Just PM me with an email address, if you would like the associated Excel file.)

Disclaimer:
- The data is provide with due care, "as is". (No resposibilty is to be taken for any errors or omissions.)
- FYI I am in no way associated with LP Gear.
That's a great list!

Thank you for putting that together.

Collux
senior member
senior member
Australia
Posts: 562
Joined: 01 Oct 2017 23:54
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by Collux » 06 Oct 2019 01:41

Thank you for the reply. :D

It's really just a search on the LP Gear website for ViVid Line items and then a collation/re-organisation of the results by manufacturer.

My Excel file is to be recommended, as you can then readily copy & paste a listing, directly into the LP Gear search engine.

Hoping this is useful to others.

wolfie62
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 1043
Joined: 04 Jan 2017 15:47
Location: Birmingham

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by wolfie62 » 06 Oct 2019 01:54

I have 2 Vivid Line styli. I find them to be a really good value, in the higher side of medium-priced. One has done double duty for the Empire 2000X and EDR.9. The other is on my Shure M97HE. They are a definite treat to listen to!

They track well, with no sibilance, and really do bring out fine detail! The titanium bond was a good choice, non-corrosive to aluminum and transfers vibrations to the cantilever very well.

wolfie62
long player
long player
United States of America
Posts: 1043
Joined: 04 Jan 2017 15:47
Location: Birmingham

Re: Golden era MMs in the 21st century

Post by wolfie62 » 06 Oct 2019 02:13

billshurv wrote:
04 Oct 2019 09:09
wolfie62 wrote:
04 Oct 2019 02:36
[
Yup, I’ll continue wasting my time enjoying all the non-AT carts and styli, which are plentiful and rare. Meanwhile, everyone else concentrate on AT and Signet! It’ll drive up the prices and demand, way above those of us who enjoy the “lesser” cartridges that successfully competed with, bettered, and even outsold AT!
How can something be plentiful and rare?

As for driving up prices, have you seen what high end ADC goes for on ebay? The cost puts them outside my personal comfort zone at the moment. At least until I can confirm someone can retip them locally. XLM and QLM seem to be more affordable, but which are the ones to look for value and performance?

This thread should be about all great historic cartridges and I don't think there was any goal of hijack by sunwire. But he has a point, if only for stopping the obsession that it is possible to get into with collecting.

No one has mentioned shure V15V with Jico SAS yet, which intrigues me as reports are that it's still near the top of the hill in that configuration. Its another combo outside my personal comfort zone for now.
You didn’t read my second paragraph.

But, there are many fine vintage carts to be had, and replacement styli are generally plentiful, with NOS styli more rare each day. Aftermarket styli are generally plentiful, yet not all are created equal.

As for ADC carts and styli, I think $45 is the most I’ve paid for a TOTL cart. The last one I bought on eBay was an XLM MKIII. Paid $30 for it. The seller had a QLM 32 Stylus on it, and it was damaged. The seller sold it as a damaged QLM32 cartridge. Most of my original styli for ADC carts were sold as “used, untested”. They turned out to be used, low hour, perfect condition styli. The others I cleaned out Gary’s inventory at VOM, for the XLM Integras. The Integras used the same styli as the regular XLMs, the MKIIs that I bought were diasa bonded, so no one wanted them. Diasa is the diamond bonded to sapphire, very good styli! As near to nude as was available.

Post Reply