Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

the thin end of the wedge
Post Reply
ckadams00
junior member
junior member
United States of America
Posts: 5
Joined: 16 Sep 2019 18:37

Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by ckadams00 » 19 Sep 2019 22:20

Hello everyone, looking for a few suggestions on current quality cartridges in the $2-300 range for a PL 570 (or less if opinions are that this table doesn't need that much of a cartridge?). I have been running a Music Hall with an Ortofon 2m Bronze which I loved, but am planning on selling the MH in favor of my newly acquired PL 570 (old version, Direct Drive).

I've googled this topic to death - most responses I can find are from about 8-10 years ago and some cartridges suggested aren't available (or have skyrocketed in price). Additionally, a lot of online suggestions are for cartridges that as far as I can tell do not match in compliance with the 570's 21.4g tonearm (my 2m Bronze for example, as far as I can tell would be at 6Hz). Even the 2m red/blue seems to be right on the edge at about 7Hz. I surely don't want an expensive mis-matched cart!

So far the best matches seem to be the Denon DL110, The Denon DL 103, and the AT 150MLX. I do not have any experience with Nagaoka and there are so many offered I don't know where to start? If anyone has opinions about any of these matched with a 570 (or other suggestion, particularly in the $200 range) I'd love to hear from you.

I mostly listen to classic rock/country - Pioneer PL570 > Marantz 2245 / Onkyo TX6500 MKll > Boston Acoustic VR30 / Definitive Technology SM45

raphaelmabo
long player
long player
Sweden
Posts: 1850
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 21:01
Location: Askersund, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by raphaelmabo » 20 Sep 2019 17:00

Do note that japanese makers often gives compliance @ 100Hz instead of @ 10 Hz. And the resonance chart is for 10 Hz. You need to take their values x2 to give a rough working value. You need a cartridge with compliance @ 10 Hz to be <= 12. Not above 12.

The Denon DL-110 is a medium compliance cartridge, the AT150x is like your 2M Bronze and the Nagaoka cartridges are medium compliance close to the Denon. They are known to have higher compliance than their figures suggests.

I believe your best bet is the Denon DL-103, it is known to work well with high mass tonearms.

LP Gear BIN 215 or 323 are at the border between medium and low compliance. It should work too.

I’ve searched, but I haven’t been able to confirm that the 570 has the effective mass you say, I’ve looked in the manual. The tonearm mass is not mentioned. But I’ve seen in other forums that it’s regarded as a ”medium to high mass” tonearm.

ckadams00
junior member
junior member
United States of America
Posts: 5
Joined: 16 Sep 2019 18:37

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by ckadams00 » 21 Sep 2019 18:13

Thanks raphaelmabo! The turntable actually arrived with a Shure V15 Type 3 on it, I'm going to see how it sounds.

ckadams00
junior member
junior member
United States of America
Posts: 5
Joined: 16 Sep 2019 18:37

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by ckadams00 » 22 Sep 2019 01:11

Unfortunately the Shure cart has a slightly bent stylus - I'll most likely replace soon. In the mean time I found an old (yello) Ortofon FF 15 XE Mkii that sounds AWESOME on this TT!

chgc
senior member
senior member
Posts: 387
Joined: 20 Jan 2018 20:54

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by chgc » 22 Sep 2019 02:50

In my opinion, you’ve answered your own question— try whatever you can get your hands on for not too much money that seems promising and give it a listen. You will learn a lot more about how different carts sound than by googling, and have a lot more fun, not to mention amassing a collection of carts and styli that you can play with.

Collux
senior member
senior member
Australia
Posts: 568
Joined: 01 Oct 2017 23:54
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by Collux » 22 Sep 2019 03:12

This will get your V15 type III up and running again, relatively inexpensively
https://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog ... ategories=

For a bit more money:
https://jicocanada.com/products/stylus- ... -cartridge

GuidoK
member
member
Posts: 87
Joined: 05 Dec 2007 21:20
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by GuidoK » 22 Sep 2019 04:57

Are you sure the pl-570 tonearm has an effective mass of 21,4 gram?
That seems like a lot.
How much does the headshell weigh? (the headshell on these type of tonearms are the majority of the effective mass)
Anyway a V15 III is not a good match as these cartridges have a very high compliance.
For someting in the $200 range you could try the Audio Technica VM540ML (about $25), or the AT-440mlb (its predecessor). Very nice nude microline stylus that gives lots of detail in the high frequencies and tracks very well.

Denon DL-110 is also nice.

Collux
senior member
senior member
Australia
Posts: 568
Joined: 01 Oct 2017 23:54
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by Collux » 22 Sep 2019 05:55

The Audio Technica VM95ML for ~$139 is also a good option, with a lower compliance.
https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/cart ... index.html
https://tinyurl.com/y67emdsb

raphaelmabo
long player
long player
Sweden
Posts: 1850
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 21:01
Location: Askersund, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by raphaelmabo » 22 Sep 2019 09:42

GuidoK wrote:
22 Sep 2019 04:57
Are you sure the pl-570 tonearm has an effective mass of 21,4 gram?
That seems like a lot.
How much does the headshell weigh? (the headshell on these type of tonearms are the majority of the effective mass)
Anyway a V15 III is not a good match as these cartridges have a very high compliance.
For someting in the $200 range you could try the Audio Technica VM540ML (about $25), or the AT-440mlb (its predecessor). Very nice nude microline stylus that gives lots of detail in the high frequencies and tracks very well.

Denon DL-110 is also nice.
The AT VM540ML has a dynamic compliance of 10 @ 100 Hz. It has a static compliance of 40. This roughly translates into 20 @ 10 Hz, same as Ortofon 2M. The resonance calculator uses 10 Hz, not 100 Hz. A compliance of 20 is too much for a 21g tonearm. You need to stay at or below 12.

The DL-110 has a compliance of 8 @ 100 Hz. This translates into 16 @ 10 Hz. Still too high.

GuidoK
member
member
Posts: 87
Joined: 05 Dec 2007 21:20
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by GuidoK » 22 Sep 2019 16:06

raphaelmabo wrote:
22 Sep 2019 09:42


The AT VM540ML has a dynamic compliance of 10 @ 100 Hz. It has a static compliance of 40. This roughly translates into 20 @ 10 Hz,
I doubt his tonearm mass is 21,4g. (my guess is its more like 18g max)
Also, I don't have the dl-110, but I do have a dl-160, which measures in between 9 and 10hz in most japanese S tonearms (they're all roughly the same weight, mostly influenced by the headshell weight)

I dont have the vm540ML, but I do have the 440mlb and that also measures at about 10hz in Japanese S tonearms.
So I think he'll be fine with both a dl-110 and a 440mlb.
I also dont think the vm540ml will have a compliance of 20@10hz
How do you come by that data? Have you measured that?

I think that for those particular 2 cartridges the compliance at 100hz and at 10hz is very close.

Also, particular that denon seems to suffer very little from resonance wobble, which indicates that the suspension has a very good/low Q factor. This is data which is never published, but that cartridge is a very good performer. I expect the dl-110 to do the same.

raphaelmabo
long player
long player
Sweden
Posts: 1850
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 21:01
Location: Askersund, Sweden
Contact:

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by raphaelmabo » 22 Sep 2019 20:52

GuidoK wrote:
22 Sep 2019 16:06
raphaelmabo wrote:
22 Sep 2019 09:42
The AT VM540ML has a dynamic compliance of 10 @ 100 Hz. It has a static compliance of 40. This roughly translates into 20 @ 10 Hz,
I doubt his tonearm mass is 21,4g. (my guess is its more like 18g max)
It may be so, I don't know. The user manual for the turntable doesn't mention the mass for the tonearm. So it's unknown information. I don't know from where the thread starter got the 21.4 information. But it may be right, it may be wrong. But I go after that value unless we have other information, to be on the safe sida.
Also, I don't have the dl-110, but I do have a dl-160, which measures in between 9 and 10hz in most japanese S tonearms (they're all roughly the same weight, mostly influenced by the headshell weight)
My understanding is that the Technics 1200 original S-arm was 12g including headshell. Most S-arms seems to be somewhere between 12 - 18g including headshell. But there seems to be a lot of variation here. We need the mass including headshell. I do know that you can alter by going for a lighter headshell. It's lots of variations when it comes to japanese S-arms. So if we say 18g instead of 21.4, then the DL-110 will be a better match.
I also dont think the vm540ml will have a compliance of 20@10hz
How do you come by that data? Have you measured that?
"The compliance can be measured both statically (zero Hz) and dynamically (10, 100 and very rarely 1.000 Hz).
When the compliance is measured in a static way, the mean value is approximately the double of the value we would measure at 10 Hz and the quadruple of the value at 100 Hz."
https://www.remusic.it/EN/The-Complianc ... o-05728c00

"There is one snag about it. The manufacturers of cartridges do not always state a useful value for C(ompliance). (It should be started at 10 Hz). Figures of C coming from Japan usually are measured at 100 Hz, so they should be multiplied by 1.5-2. Figures of C coming from USA often are static values, so they should be halved. Most figures of C coming from Europe are OK (stated at 10 Hz)"
http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html

Regarding the AT440. Here's some interesting measurements:
"If we look at carts like the AT440 or 150MLX (10cu @ 100Hz) and use a test record to measure resultant resonant frequency with a known arm (eff mass), we can calculate the 10Hz cu. It seems as if a 100Hz cu of 10 = 18cu @ 10Hz. The conversion factor looks to be approx. 1.75 x 100Hz cu."
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=122508.0

This should mean that the AT-VM520 is between 18-20 cu @ 10 Hz and this doesn't work with 21.4g mass tonearm.

But then we have this thing called sample variation, just to complicate things even further. This means that individual samples can be different.

MCM_Fan
member
member
Posts: 190
Joined: 14 Jan 2017 00:36

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by MCM_Fan » 22 Sep 2019 21:52

I'm considering using a Denon DL-110 on a table with a tonearm with an effective mass of 17g. In my research, I came across a post claiming the measured dynamic compliance of the DL-110 is 14 cu @ 10Hz. I've also read that many people us a multiplier of 1.7 - 1.8x when converting dynamic compliance at 100 Hz to 10Hz . 14 Hz works out to 1.75x the published 8 cu at 100Hz spec. So, for my purposes, I'm comfortable using 14 cu as the dynamic compliance at 10 Hz for the Denon DL-110.

For the OP, a lighter headshell would help move things in the right direction. It also helps that the DL-110 is a pretty light cartridge (4.8g). Plugging the numbers (21.4g effective mass, 4.8g cartridge weight, 14 cu compliance) in to the formula yields a resonance frequency of 8.3Hz. Not ideal, but within the generally considered safe zone between 8 and 12Hz. Shave a gram or two off the headshell weight and things get better

For me, with my 17g effective mass tonearm, it works out to 9.1Hz. It also helps that I've read several positive reports of others using the DL-110 on my table (Yamaha PX-2).

Another cartridge I am considering is the Nagaoka MP-110. Official spec is 6 cu dynamic at 100Hz. Using the same 1.75x multiplier yields a calculated dynamic compliance of 10.5 cu at 10Hz. With a weight of 6.5g, that works out to a resonant frequency of 9.3Hz with the OP's tonearm. On paper, a pretty good match, especially if the OP can switch to a lighter headshell.

GuidoK
member
member
Posts: 87
Joined: 05 Dec 2007 21:20
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by GuidoK » 22 Sep 2019 23:36

raphaelmabo wrote:
22 Sep 2019 20:52

"The compliance can be measured both statically (zero Hz) and dynamically (10, 100 and very rarely 1.000 Hz).
When the compliance is measured in a static way, the mean value is approximately the double of the value we would measure at 10 Hz and the quadruple of the value at 100 Hz."
https://www.remusic.it/EN/The-Complianc ... o-05728c00

"There is one snag about it. The manufacturers of cartridges do not always state a useful value for C(ompliance). (It should be started at 10 Hz). Figures of C coming from Japan usually are measured at 100 Hz, so they should be multiplied by 1.5-2. Figures of C coming from USA often are static values, so they should be halved. Most figures of C coming from Europe are OK (stated at 10 Hz)"
http://www.resfreq.com/resonancecalculator.html

Regarding the AT440. Here's some interesting measurements:
"If we look at carts like the AT440 or 150MLX (10cu @ 100Hz) and use a test record to measure resultant resonant frequency with a known arm (eff mass), we can calculate the 10Hz cu. It seems as if a 100Hz cu of 10 = 18cu @ 10Hz. The conversion factor looks to be approx. 1.75 x 100Hz cu."
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=122508.0

This should mean that the AT-VM520 is between 18-20 cu @ 10 Hz and this doesn't work with 21.4g mass tonearm.

But then we have this thing called sample variation, just to complicate things even further. This means that individual samples can be different.
Ok, so you havent actually measured it.
These are all based on very vague assumptions.

There's no such thing as a fixed multiplier to convert a 100hz compliance into a 10hz compliance.
Measuring is the best way.

GuidoK
member
member
Posts: 87
Joined: 05 Dec 2007 21:20
Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by GuidoK » 23 Sep 2019 01:04

To calculate the mass of the tonearm, you have to calculate the moment of inertia of certain parts.
The formula for moment of inertia is I = m x r²
Where m is mass (kg) and r is distance from pivot point (in meters)
To follow an example I take the arm of my Sony PS-x7 which is quite a heavy arm (the headshell alone weighs ~12gr and the j shaped armtube is also heavy)

First you measure in cm how far the headshell is from the pivot point.
I take about the middle of the headshell, 20,5cm in my case (that 20,5cm is r in the next formula)
Then weigh the headshell: 11,7 gram
moment of inertia for the headshell (Ih):
Ih= m x r² = 0.0117 x (0.205²) = 0,0004916925

Then the arm tube:
Remove the contraweight and headshell from the armtube.
Rest the end of the armtube (so at the sme connector) on a postal scale and read the value.
For my ps-x7 thats 15gr. Thats half the mass of the tube (the other half rests on the pivot point)
So the arm tube mass is 30gr.
Measure the lengt of the armtube (from pivot point to end of sme connector) For my ps-x7 thats 17,5cm
Moment of inertia for the armtube (Ia):
Ia ≈ 1/3m x r² = 0.010 x (0.175²) = 0.00030625
(note that in this formula you take 1/3 of the mass; this is an approxomation on how the mass is divided dynamically)

Last the counterweigth:
Weigh the counterweight; on the ps-x7 thats 110gram.
Then mount the counterweight on the arm, and set its position so that you have about 2grams of stylus pressure (for that you have to mount the cartridge too). Measure how far the middle of the counterweight sits from the pivot point.
For my ps-x7 thats 5cm
Moment of inertia for the counterweight (Ic):
Ic = m x r² = 0,110 x (0,05²) = 0.000275

Add all the moments of inertia:
0,0004916925 + 0.00030625 + 0.000275 = 0,0010729425

Now measure the distance the stylus tip sits from the pivot point. For my ps-x7 thats 21,5cm
Now divide the total moment of inertia by r²
Meff= 0,0010729425 / (0.215²) = 0.0232
The effective mass of this arm is about 0,0232kg, so 23,2 gram
But this is a very heavy arm, both the headshell and armtube are heavy.
I expect your pioneer to be lighter.

The piece of armtube that sticks out at the back (whereto the counterweight mounts) is negligible in these calculations (the 110gr counterweight adds less than 6gr to the total effective mass of the arm, so those few grams that even sit on average closer to the pivot points wont add anything substantial)

As you can see it takes some work to figure out the effective mass of a tonearm but its certainly doable.

ckadams00
junior member
junior member
United States of America
Posts: 5
Joined: 16 Sep 2019 18:37

Re: Cartridge Suggestions Pioneer PL 570

Post by ckadams00 » 23 Sep 2019 02:32

Wow thank you for all the suggestions! I got the tonearm mass from a TT website - very possible it is incorrect and I had not seen how to calculate the mass until now. I'm surprised no one had a ready reference for the PL570 with original headshell. At any rate I'll back up and do some math but I appreciate everyone's input. The Ortofon currently on it sounds better than any cartridge I've had on nearly any turntable, so I am sticking with it for the moment and will look into other options - thanks everyone!

Post Reply