New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

the thin end of the wedge
dagfinn
senior member
senior member
Norway
Posts: 358
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by dagfinn » 11 Aug 2019 13:17

Hi all!

Lucky me have made deals for two new TTs, a Dual 510 and a Thorens TD166 mkII. They haven't arrived yet, so I don't know all details, like what cartridges are on them at the moment. But I suspect upgrades will be necessary (and fun).
dual_510.jpg
(204.86 KiB) Downloaded 162 times
headshell.jpg
(106.27 KiB) Downloaded 149 times
The Dual looks very good, but no pics of the actual pickup. May very well be the original. Effective mass of arm is 12,5g.
TD166.jpg
(212.15 KiB) Downloaded 156 times
The Thorens is a little more worn, and could use a new plinth (which I have). The arm is more mysterious to me, TP11 with TP62 armtube, I think? Effective mass 7,5g? Anyone recognize the cartridge? Would a TP21 be a better choice of arm?

I have an AT-VM540ML on order, but I'm all the time wondering if the AT-VM95ML would be just as good? Cheaper...
I think that will fit the Dual well, perhaps not so much the Thorens? The headshell seems a little limiting as well.

I may be using the 540 on my TD160, so I possibly need new pickups for both...

Any thoughts appreciated...

regards,
Dagfinn

raphaelmabo
long player
long player
Sweden
Posts: 1885
Joined: 30 Aug 2010 21:01
Location: Askersund, Sweden
Contact:

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by raphaelmabo » 11 Aug 2019 14:48

The TP11 Mk II - III is indeed 7.5 grams so it's a low mass tonearm and it likes high compliance cartridges. Do note that the Thorens uses cartridges mounted bottom to up, so this limits the choices even further. I wouldn't use an AT95 or VM95 on a TP11, but if you like Audio-Technica then the VM5x0-serie has higher compliance and should be a better match. I can't see from your images what cartridge you have on now.

Grado cartridges and Ortofon OM are other alternatives, they have high compliance and can be mounted from bottom to up.

dagfinn
senior member
senior member
Norway
Posts: 358
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by dagfinn » 11 Aug 2019 16:02

Hi raphaelmabo, and thanks for your reply. I can see they need different compliance carts, and my experience is limited. I havent't heard any of the AT's, I'm just going by what I read. And, yes, the holes in the vm95 is limiting, I almost forgot. I just want something different from the DL-103 that sits on my TD160 with Hitachi arm. MicroLine design sounds interesting and is a different generation tech than the Denon. From what I can figure out, the 540 could work in the Dual arm, but possibly also in my TD160. But the Denon will never work on the Dual, so I'll need one that can sit on the Dual if the 540 is on the TD160.

I've heard some of the early OM series a long time ago, sounded nice, from my memory.
I don't have the tt's yet, it's the sellers pictures, so there may be surprises there.

Snead
senior member
senior member
United States of America
Posts: 394
Joined: 19 Apr 2008 00:40
Location: Washington

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by Snead » 12 Aug 2019 02:59

In my experience the Duals (nice 510...my favorite of all the belters) of that era usually came with a Shure. Odds are that's what you have. It might even be a V15.

BTW, is the cueing lever is missing or am I looking at it wrong?

dagfinn
senior member
senior member
Norway
Posts: 358
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by dagfinn » 12 Aug 2019 12:57

Thanks Snead, I'll look into the Shure :). You're right, the lever seems to be missing... didn't see that.

bernard1
senior member
senior member
France
Posts: 612
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:06

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by bernard1 » 12 Aug 2019 18:32

dagfinn wrote:
11 Aug 2019 16:02
I don't have the tt's yet, it's the sellers pictures, so there may be surprises there.
You could ask the seller what cartridges are mounted. In the late seventies, the 166 MKII was equiped with the Shure M75. If it is the case, you could keep it, with one of the numerous after market styli.

dagfinn
senior member
senior member
Norway
Posts: 358
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by dagfinn » 12 Aug 2019 20:05

The Dual seller had already packed it up, ready to go and i don't want to bother her. I already made her unpack and test it once. The TD166 seller is off on vacation, I'll have to wait for him to return. I see the different Shures mentioned often on forums, but they don't appear in the same section as pickups so I never see them. I just found a local supplyer of Jico S.A.S. and other replacement styluses, which looks interesting :).
td166_cart.jpg
(53.34 KiB) Downloaded 109 times
On the Dual I can't tell, but this looks different to me, from the pictures I can find of the M75?

lini
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Germany
Posts: 6681
Joined: 22 Sep 2007 05:17
Location: Munich/Bavaria

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by lini » 13 Aug 2019 01:32

The one on the Thorens would look like Ortofon VMS family to me. The one on the Dual might be Excel QD700 family - but that's a pretty wild guess, as one really can't see much of it...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

dagfinn
senior member
senior member
Norway
Posts: 358
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by dagfinn » 13 Aug 2019 19:34

Hi lini! I asked the seller, but he said there was no writing on the pickup, so he didn't know. He's back tomorrow, so I hope the deck is here tomorrow or day after. But I agree, resembles VMS :).

dagfinn

lini
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Germany
Posts: 6681
Joined: 22 Sep 2007 05:17
Location: Munich/Bavaria

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by lini » 13 Aug 2019 23:45

dagfinn: Yup, apparently it's equipped with an unmarked, white 3rd party replacement needle - hence no visible inscription. Otherwise not much of a challenge to identify, though. However, I'm really looking forward to see more of the other cart.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

dagfinn
senior member
senior member
Norway
Posts: 358
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by dagfinn » 14 Aug 2019 12:06

Bravo, lini!
Excel-QD-700C.jpg
(122.89 KiB) Downloaded 82 times
The seller had unposted images :). Excel QD-700C, any opinions?

lini
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Germany
Posts: 6681
Joined: 22 Sep 2007 05:17
Location: Munich/Bavaria

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by lini » 14 Aug 2019 15:31

dafinn: Good body - maybe you can still find an Astatic EX-105qd replacement needle somewhere to upgrade the thingy (checking with Canadian Astatic might not harm - maybe they still have a few exemplars...). Otherwise the two usual suspects among the Dutch replacement needle vendors should both still offer a comparable high quality Tonar replacement needle for the QD700X/S700XR for ca. 140 Euro.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

(who can't help being a bit proud of being able to even identify an almost invisible cart... :))

dagfinn
senior member
senior member
Norway
Posts: 358
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by dagfinn » 14 Aug 2019 20:49

Great info, lini, thanks. The needle looks broken, so it's good to know it's worth replacing :).

My TD166 has arrived, and I'm quite happy about it so far.
ortofon_VMS.jpg
(113.68 KiB) Downloaded 70 times
Ortofon_vms_body.jpg
(94.66 KiB) Downloaded 68 times
It is Ortofon VMS-series. Of course, the needle is broken.
broken_needle.jpg
(57.01 KiB) Downloaded 69 times
What are good replacement needles for this cart? There is nothing printed to identify the body model, only "Ortofon Denmark" and "SEVERAL PATENTS" on top. Looks like VMS10 or 20 by body design, except mine is black.
https://www.ortofon.com/vms-cartridges-p-614-n-4873
ortofon-d-20e-mk-2.png
(241.36 KiB) Downloaded 67 times
Can I use this? Quite reasonable, Tonar made for VMS-20E Mk2. How would this compare to OM with Stylus 10, for instance?
The 166 is a little worn outside, but looks nice inside. Looks new, compared to my TD160 from late seventies. I can see drinks have been spilt, but not in critical places. Antiskating weights are in place, nothing looks broken :).
TD166_internals.jpg
(243.38 KiB) Downloaded 67 times

dagfinn
senior member
senior member
Norway
Posts: 358
Joined: 09 Jun 2019 00:29

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by dagfinn » 14 Aug 2019 22:14

The cart has one "notch"/one groove in the stylus...
notch.jpg
(111.84 KiB) Downloaded 65 times
groove.jpg
(97.56 KiB) Downloaded 65 times

lini
vinyl addict
vinyl addict
Germany
Posts: 6681
Joined: 22 Sep 2007 05:17
Location: Munich/Bavaria

Re: New TT: Dual 510 and Thorens TD 166 cartridges

Post by lini » 16 Aug 2019 01:54

dagfinn: A newer. original D20E MkII (with H/X-ish shaped coding plug) should work and be a nice upgrade.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Post Reply