Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

the thin end of the wedge
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scho2684
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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by scho2684 » 21 Jan 2020 20:03

dagfinn wrote:
21 Jan 2020 10:59
Signet TKN9LCa, tapered beryllium cantilever with shibata/LC.
I think that's a gorgeous picture!
If the focus was a bit more on the stylus then most likely the Shibata shape could have been identified...
I had trouble not thinking this to be a naked conical, but when looking better at least the square shaft is visible...

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by DeepEnd » 21 Jan 2020 20:44

OK just a few more, this is a partially worn Stylus 10 (Ortofon) so tried shure's "bright spot" arrangement
2020-01-21 O10x10 (2).jpg
Stylus 10
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and also Ray's type 5 arrangement "dark spot"
2020-01-21 O10x10d (2).jpg
Stylus 10
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think I may be hitting the limits of my cheap lens and my defused 45 degree source does not work as well as a true ring-light but I have not seen one small enough for the 10x objective.

Had a quick look for a Nikon MPLAN 10x but they appear to be much rarer this side of the pond and go for 2 to 3 times more than Ray's typical cost. Has anyone got any experience of the Olympus SPLAN 10x which seems more readily available over here?

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by dagfinn » 21 Jan 2020 22:01

DeepEnd wrote:
21 Jan 2020 20:44

think I may be hitting the limits of my cheap lens and my defused 45 degree source does not work as well as a true ring-light but I have not seen one small enough for the 10x objective.
You manage to show the contact points, very nice. How small does the ringlight need to be?

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by ray_parkhurst » 22 Jan 2020 01:38

I've tried several USB microscopes, a couple endoscopes, and some "Full HD" C-mount cameras with good optics, and none of them could tell me much about the stylus other than

- is there a diamond still there
- does it still have a "sharp tip" or is the tip broken off

None of the ones I tried, up to ~$300, could give high enough resolution to tell me if the tip was worn versus new, or how much wear was present. I'm very interested to see any stylus images which show the wear present at the tip using any USB microscope at any price.

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by ray_parkhurst » 22 Jan 2020 01:41

DeepEnd wrote:
21 Jan 2020 20:44
OK just a few more, this is a partially worn Stylus 10 (Ortofon) so tried shure's "bright spot" arrangement

2020-01-21 O10x10 (2).jpg

and also Ray's type 5 arrangement "dark spot"

2020-01-21 O10x10d (2).jpg

think I may be hitting the limits of my cheap lens and my defused 45 degree source does not work as well as a true ring-light but I have not seen one small enough for the 10x objective.

Had a quick look for a Nikon MPLAN 10x but they appear to be much rarer this side of the pond and go for 2 to 3 times more than Ray's typical cost. Has anyone got any experience of the Olympus SPLAN 10x which seems more readily available over here?
Looks very good! both techniques are giving a good result.

I don't know much about the SPlan 10x, but generally I have not been lucky with Olympus objectives. If you want to make a list of the ones you have available, I can give some input on which would be best.

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by ray_parkhurst » 22 Jan 2020 03:32

DeepEnd wrote:
21 Jan 2020 20:44
think I may be hitting the limits of my cheap lens and my defused 45 degree source does not work as well as a true ring-light but I have not seen one small enough for the 10x objective.
The blurriness I'm seeing in the images looks like the result of vibration. The classic way to eliminate the effect is to use flash, but sometimes it's hard to get a flash to work in these lighting situations. A way to prove if vibration is the cause is to use low light level such that the correct exposure time is ~1 sec, then use a 3 sec exposure starting with the lights off and turning on the lights after ~2 sec. This will give ~2 sec for the vibrations to die down before the light is turned on, giving ~1 sec of vibration-free exposure. If the image is sharper, then it's likely that shutter shake, or some other source of vibration, is causing the problem. Just be sure that your method of turning on the lights doesn't cause any vibration...

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by ray_parkhurst » 22 Jan 2020 03:48

I checked on Alan Wood's Olympus site, and he has a download available for the SPlan objectives (it includes several other series as well) here:

http://www.alanwood.net/downloads/olymp ... ctives.pdf

According to the brochure, the working distance of the SPlan 10 is only 7.5mm which is the same as the Nikon MPlan 10. Note also that the objective has fairly high NA, and is a "biological" objective, meaning that it is designed for use with a cover slip. In this case the slip is 0.17mm, so for best performance should be used with such a cover slip, yet that is very inconvenient when doing stylus imaging.

Edited to add: in reality the 7.5mm working distance of both the Olympus and Nikon objectives is pretty short and will make technique #5 difficult to implement. The other techniques are possible but the objective may hit against the stylus body when held at 45-deg.

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by DeepEnd » 22 Jan 2020 08:20

Thanks for the thoughts Ray and will look into vibration before a new lens.

With regard to the lenses I may just have to wait until a Nikon appears at a more sensible price.

Given the working distance of my current 10x objectives is only 5.84mm having a bit more room looks good!!
C6431576-9486-46DA-A704-C557142E2E62.jpeg
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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by ray_parkhurst » 22 Jan 2020 13:09

Looks like a good setup. Fix the vibration (if indeed that's the problem) and you should have a good analysis tool.

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by DeepEnd » 22 Jan 2020 13:40

So... tried again and moved the rig onto a much studier surface and there is a further improvement but still suffering from shutter shock I think as the view on the screen of the camera (at x7 over normal) shows more detail in the the area just below the tip than the finished photograph and I can feel vibrations through the rig.

Might have to think about a move a Mk2 E-M5 for it's electronic shutter (and 40MP detailed mode!!) but going to try flash and lights on a timer as suggested by Ray before spending more funds.
2020-01-22OS10x10Pt2.jpg
Stylus 20 Part 2
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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by scrapjack+ » 23 Jan 2020 03:36

DeepEnd wrote:
21 Jan 2020 20:44
think I may be hitting the limits of my cheap lens and my defused 45 degree source does not work as well as a true ring-light but I have not seen one small enough for the 10x objective.
If that objective is about the size of a telescope objective than I have seen some light rings about that size meant for cell phones. Being cheap cell phone lens stuff they don't really have actual brands or model numbers, but perhaps you'll find one bright enough on eBay. I mention telescopes as I know there are multiple threaddings and tube sizes for microscopes and I don't know a lot about the expensive ones. I am assuming you are using a microscope objective as I don't know how a telescope objective could work in this application.

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by DeepEnd » 27 Jan 2020 10:28

OK looking at trying flash and as I have not liked the flexible arrangements of the LED lights have gone for something that can be “fixed” in the correct place.

It would appear that SmallRig who made all the rail parts also make these:/
10DB7742-45B3-4B2E-A08B-EA382D963E65.jpeg
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Again quality vs price is good and I also picked up a second TTL flash (Olympus FL-36R) with off camera lead for £46 so when that and the two cold shoes arrive will try with flash.

Trying a crude ring diffuser as well. More to follow
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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by DeepEnd » 27 Jan 2020 10:57

Turns out getting a place for the arms is tricky but can be done!!
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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by ray_parkhurst » 27 Jan 2020 14:34

As you're seeing, flash is a bit difficult to implement with these "shaped" lighting arrangements. The flash suggestion was more as an analysis tool to see if the vibrations caused by the camera or system are the root cause of the blurriness you're seeing. So, don't worry if you can't get everything set up perfectly, just give it a try and see if the blurriness goes away. If so, then it's worth putting in more effort, or perhaps planning on a camera which can work with continuous lighting.

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Re: Stylus images on the not cheap (but not massively expensive)

Post by DeepEnd » 27 Jan 2020 15:34

Given the price I paid for the flash if things don’t work out I can probably sell the flash at a small profit. I can also check it’s performance against my Nissin D466i and perhaps keep the better one.

I do, however, have a few ideas for small dimension diffusers/flash hoods etc, it’s just I had the table tennis ball and cardboard tube sitting around for a quick trial (ball OK, tube not so good).

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