Stanton 881s VTF question

the thin end of the wedge
JPM
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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 12 Jun 2019 19:54

It's kinda funny, Stanton could have avoided their customers years of testing, weighing and debating by simply stating in the original literature that all the listener had to do was (i) zero the arm with the brush off, (ii) dial the counterweight to anywhere between .75 and 1.25 and (iii) if they want to use the brush, just take it on and off as desired with the only adjustment necessary being to add the extra gram to the AS when using it!

Fantastic engineers, slightly less so when it comes to drafting clear instructions. It was obvious to them I guess!

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by H. callahan » 13 Jun 2019 03:52

JPM wrote:
12 Jun 2019 12:45
Ok... so just checked the manual. It states "balance the tonearm and mounted cartridge according to turntable manufacturer's instructions. At balance brush and stylus tip should just clear the record. Arm setting with brush 2 grams +/- 1/4, Resulting TF 1 gram +/- 1/4, Arm setting without brush 1 gram +/- 1/4."

...
To me this means "balance the tonearm with the brush on the cartridge" because its says "At balance brush and stylus tip should just clear the record".

Now if you balance the tonearm with the brush on, you´ll be zero-ing the weight of the brush and therefore you´ll have to add another 1g for the brush.

As the brush itself does weight pretty much 1g this step of zeroing the arm with brush on and then adding another 1g for the brush could be left out, but there may be different reasons not to do so:
For example Stanton might have wanted to avoid wrong resulting TF by varying weight of the brush, due to tollerances during production of these brushes.
Also, as the brush is attached to the plastic housing of the stylus asselmby not all the weight the brush has might be put onto the bristles of the brush - maybe only 80% of the brushes own weight will be put onto the bristles, so zeroing arm with brush on and adding 1g to TF is more precise.
Maybe the weight of the brush also does change VTF different for different tonearms. I mean if you zero the arm without brush but then add the brush later, the brush will counteract the counterweight. Now depending on the length of the arm the weight of the brush might add more than 1g to TF or less.

There may not be much of a difference but zeroing the arm with brush on and then add 1g additional to TF will be more correct and cancel all variables like some brushes being a little heavier or lighter than others. And as audiophiles can get pretty picky about TF (today and back then), Stanton provided a procedure guaranteeign correct TF.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by cafe latte » 13 Jun 2019 11:24

katana1100 wrote:
10 Jun 2019 15:05
It’s worth noting that you should see if you prefer using the brush. I preferred it off on my Sanyo q60 ( carbon arm).
If soft original brush use it, later OM brush don't. The 881 is high compliance so for most arms it needs that brush. The OM brushes are too stiff and noisy, but a soft brush is only a good thing.
Chris

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 13 Jun 2019 23:24

Thanks, Chris.

Have two original D81s brushes so all good on that front. Tried the Jico and LP ones a few years back and I agree.... didn't like them at all. Have the original brush on now and all dialled in correctly. Sounds great!! Soooo good having a D81s back.

Incidentally, if anyone was curious about the Pfanstiehl 4825-DEZ from Voice of Music (no association at all, first thing I've ever purchased from them), just got one and I'll echo the praise for it elsewhere. For $29 it's an unbelievably capable little stylus for the 881s.... stone cold bargain. Only has about 4/5 hours on it so far, but I'm really surprised how good it sounds already. Sound is well balanced, and detail is surprisingly good, especially at $29. Do watch out for the output off it...it's definitely higher output than the D81s or Jico. Noticeable drop off in volume when switching it out for the D81s and Jico.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by cafe latte » 14 Jun 2019 10:07

JPM wrote:
13 Jun 2019 23:24
Thanks, Chris.

Have two original D81s brushes so all good on that front. Tried the Jico and LP ones a few years back and I agree.... didn't like them at all. Have the original brush on now and all dialled in correctly. Sounds great!! Soooo good having a D81s back.

Incidentally, if anyone was curious about the Pfanstiehl 4825-DEZ from Voice of Music (no association at all, first thing I've ever purchased from them), just got one and I'll echo the praise for it elsewhere. For $29 it's an unbelievably capable little stylus for the 881s.... stone cold bargain. Only has about 4/5 hours on it so far, but I'm really surprised how good it sounds already. Sound is well balanced, and detail is surprisingly good, especially at $29. Do watch out for the output off it...it's definitely higher output than the D81s or Jico. Noticeable drop off in volume when switching it out for the D81s and Jico.
Thanks, to you too think I will order a voice of music of music stylus

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by wolfie62 » 14 Jun 2019 13:50

You’re making this WAY TOO complicated!

You want to place the brush down. Then adjust the counterweight until the stylus is JUST touching (barely!!) the record surface. ZERO your arm scale here! That is your ZERO REFERENCE! Then, adjust your counterweight to 1.5 grams. Now, you’re DONE!

Isn’t that easy? That’s how the Stanton directions tell you to do it, BTW.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 14 Jun 2019 14:44

Haha....yeah, maybe I am, Wolfie...guess it comes with the territory when you get to the stage of finding yourself regularly trawling through forums about the associated minutiae!

Maybe we have different Stanton lit, because my 881s lit is definitely not that clear about the issue (see photo). It says zero the arm until stylus and brush are just clear of record surface (i.e. balance arm with brush on) and the arm setting with the brush should then be 2 grams +/- 1/4 grams. That description is just not correct as an instruction and is what causes some folk confusion.

I'm guessing that not all Stanton lit is the same and that some is more muddled in the explanation but others have lit with a clearer instruction.
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wolfie62
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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by wolfie62 » 14 Jun 2019 15:13

Actually, they are close to the same. “At balance the brush and stylus tip should just clear the record.”

Admittedly, I had just read the procedure for the 681 EEE. It says zero balance point when brush is ON the record, and stylus tip is barely touching the record surface.

Either way is pretty clear and straight forward.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 14 Jun 2019 15:29

Oh, I agree those descriptions are very similar, Wolfie.

What had me all confused was when it then says immediately below that the arm setting with the brush should be 2 grams +/- 1/4 (assuming it has been balanced wiht the brush on as implied in the sentence above it). I suspect that instruction is simply not correct as the brush is actually self supporting.

What they mean by that (I suspect, but maybe I am wrong, I'm def not a Stanton engineer!) is that the arm setting with the brush that will give you effective 1 gram +/- 1/4 actual TF is the same position (not setting) as the counterweight when dialled to 1 gram +/- 1/4 if the arm has been balanced w/or the brush.

The problem/confusion I have with the lit is that if you balance the arm with the brush on, set the the CW dial to 0 and then dial to 2 grams +/- 1/4 you will end up with greater than 1 gram +/- 1/4 on the actual stylus tip. Japi's photos earlier in the thread with brush up and brush down demonstrate this is almost certainly the likely outcome.

I think Needlstein's recommended method of balance without the brush, set to 1 gram +/- TF then put the brush on as you desire with the only further adjustment being to AS for the brush weight is the best one for people like me! But Stanton definitely do not make that clear in their lit.

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by wolfie62 » 14 Jun 2019 17:13

Agreed on all counts! Just about bet it wasn’t a Stanton engineer who drafted the VTF procedures. More likely a publishing clerk working for a sales engineer! “Great! Let’s go get a beer!”

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 14 Jun 2019 17:41

Haha....yep, sounds about right. I know I would have likely done the same thing!

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Re: Stanton 881s VTF question

Post by JPM » 14 Jun 2019 23:44

[/quote]
Thanks, to you too think I will order a voice of music of music stylus
[/quote]

BTW, Chris, forgot to say...if you're thinking of taking a punt on the VoM styluses for the 881s, the only one I have tried is the 4825-DEZ. The 4825-DEZ is the later iteration of the 4822-DEE, which apparently often needed a good deal of added VTF to kill sibilance, especially on low mass arms.

Compliance on the 4825-DEZ is nowhere near the D81s, but it is tracking fine for me at around 1.6 grams with original D81s brush on. And I guess the increased output of it is probably down to the fact that it was originally designed for MI carts. I'll probably lower the VTF a fraction after 30 hours or so and see how it goes with that.

I should also say, don't expect the sun, moon and stars for $29, but at that price I am more than happy with it and think it's an absolute steal compared with other, pricier offerings. A great beater stylus to have for this cart for very little money. I have heard reports of some QC issues (at $29 a pop, that's just the reality I guess), but apparently VoM are good about sorting you out if you get a dud.