DJ Cartridge Exploration

the thin end of the wedge
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Cygnus Vismund
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by Cygnus Vismund » 20 Jun 2019 09:32

tlscapital wrote:
20 Jun 2019 08:17
Cygnus Vismund wrote:
18 Jun 2019 13:59
Looked to me like he was asking for suggestions and mentioned he wanted a cart he could scratch with.
In this stylus forum as it will be on most audio forums it is evidently so; 'analog' when it is being discussed cartridges and styluses. Might you want to find out why, just start a post in this regard. I am not sure many on here will have much to say as I doubt many will dig further into this "technology" after witnessing it/the thing if ever they do...
Cygnus Vismund wrote:
18 Jun 2019 13:59
He never said anything about it being exclusively analog. Most mixers are doing A/D conversion anyway. You're fooling yourself if you think the music is being produced all analog too (with a few exceptions).
Being presumptuous is not going to help you. If you think I believe all music is being produced analog you're way off. Even more so since you do not know anything about me. Never imply someone else's word. Educated people don't do that. I prefer analog playback (and most of my records are though) and I do know new releases are never that 100%.

Don't forget that this site is dedicated to audio gear where members are posting their ideas, knowledge and advices in order to share, help and or argue over theories and practices. Likes and dislikes can be exposed even with passion but preferably not with sterile unfounded insults and arguments on members you are discussing with.
Cygnus Vismund wrote:
18 Jun 2019 13:59
I should have clarified that I'd use the digital stylus as opposed to the whole cartridge. Since I already own the Concords. These can be used with a number of different styli and actually are better for DJing, since it has a lower center of gravity, tracks heavier, and has a notch to see the needle. They could also work double duty for audiophile listening using a Super OM stylus.
You like the Ortofon 'Concord', not me, and that is fine. The main reason why the "scratchers" mainly opted for these is that it has indeed a low-er center of gravity and so is evidently more "precise" and "stable" close to the swift hand on the record. The other characteristic you mentioned is also true for many other cartridges.
Cygnus Vismund wrote:
18 Jun 2019 13:59
You kept recommending a cartridge that is no longer in production.
I am not the only one recommending that cartridge and it's DJ stylus replacement from Jico. Not in production anymore and so what ? I buy second hand and new records and phono gear. Always did that. Stil do. Don't think I am the only one doing that on here. But maybe that is an issue to you ?
Cygnus Vismund wrote:
18 Jun 2019 13:59
Saying a DJ is a fraud if they dont play their own music.
Please show me where I said that. Copy and paste where I said exactly that !
Cygnus Vismund wrote:
18 Jun 2019 13:59
Well, the link I posted is a dj that does play his own music while remixing other's on the fly. Then you go on to say he's not a real dj. That's absurd. Basically, you have been spewing opinionated garbage. I mean, you even started talking about Vietcong and other nonsense.
Once again, show me where I said that that "dude" is not a DJ. And I talk garbage, really ? Now you are even being insulting. What an argumentation ! Educated eh ! And I talk about Vietcong now... What, where and when ? Nonsense, second time you use that empty denying term. Out of argument you are ?
Ah, its so apparent. You are wanting to argue. I came here to discuss topics, but you do you. [-X

wolfie62
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by wolfie62 » 20 Jun 2019 14:11

tlscapital wrote:
20 Jun 2019 08:53
wolfie62 wrote:
19 Jun 2019 19:36
Anyone use the Shure SC35C? It was considered good for BBC use in the 70s, from what I’ve read.
Those SC35C's do look great and are liked by many. Was told that they were more on the "detail" side of things than the M44-7 in comparison. And so aiming better for 'classical & jazz' than 'rock & pop' playback.
I did quite a bit of reading about that SC35C cart yesterday. I have one. The reviews say it has great bass reproduction, right and full, and more detail than even the Denon DL 103. But, it tracks at 5 grams, and very low compliance, 5mV output. But also very ruggedly built. Conical Stylus, typically. Stereophile liked it a lot! Sounds like it could be a contender! I’m going to give it a try. But I just don’t see how it could compete against the M97 Era IV, or V15V for detail. (Not DJ use, but HiFi playback.)

tlscapital
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by tlscapital » 20 Jun 2019 15:39

wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 14:11
...The reviews say it has great bass reproduction, right and full, and more detail than even the Denon DL 103. But, it tracks at 5 grams, and very low compliance, 5mV output. But also very ruggedly built. Conical Stylus, typically...
Fit it on a headshell and test it for yourself then ! You shouldn't be weary of such high VTF if ever. But should benefit evidently from a heavy effective mass tonearm. And to compare a DL-103 to it is kinda odd for a LO-MC cartridge and HO-MM one... But if it is for reference I must admit that I don't know how sounds a DL-103 fitted on a right tonearm.
wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 14:11
Stereophile liked it a lot! Sounds like it could be a contender! I’m going to give it a try. But I just don’t see how it could compete against the M97 Era IV, or V15V for detail. (Not DJ use, but HiFi playback.)
For me detail is not that important beyond a certain point. But I know that it is for many if not most other out there. The compatible replacement stylus issue is also to be put into perspective there. And I wonder if Jico have good to better than the OEM's for that model of Shure cartridge like they have the DJ version (not Hi-Fi though) for the M44-7 ?

mamakasou
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by mamakasou » 20 Jun 2019 17:07

tlscapital wrote:
20 Jun 2019 08:53

Those SC35C's do look great and are liked by many. Was told that they were more on the "detail" side of things than the M44-7 in comparison. And so aiming better for 'classical & jazz' than 'rock & pop' playback.
Actually the M44s are all more detailed than the SC35C, with the exception of the M44C which sounds very close.

Tonally the SC35C is almost identical to the Pickering V15-AT3, just a bit less dynamic/bold.

Generally, it is more on the warmer side of things.

Really nice alternative for that Pickering V15 type of sound, albeit a tad inferior. Still a very welcome option for those that are after a smoother and warmer rendition with that distinct 'vintage' flavor.

Needs a heavy mass arm and no fear for higher VTFs.
I need to note that my experience is limited to the SC35C that is made in Mexico. So the older variety might be a bit different. Some folks that have both say that the US made one with the 0.6mil tip, is superior.
Last edited by mamakasou on 20 Jun 2019 17:22, edited 5 times in total.

wolfie62
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by wolfie62 » 20 Jun 2019 17:15

tlscapital wrote:
20 Jun 2019 15:39


For me detail is not that important beyond a certain point. But I know that it is for many if not most other out there. The compatible replacement stylus issue is also to be put into perspective there. And I wonder if Jico have good to better than the OEM's for that model of Shure cartridge like they have the DJ version (not Hi-Fi though) for the M44-7 ?
Not directly on topic, but related:

For a long time folks have vehemently argued the superior merits of the Technics SL1200 MKII Turntable. Not me. Built well for DJ use, but not necessarily the best for HiFi playback. And, I’m not a DJ, don’t now, and have never aspired to be one. So those non-DJ owners who say over and over that it’s the best turntable to own for vinyl playback...I don’t get it.

I have long held that DJs really don’t care about, and don’t need HiFi playback. DJ carts aren’t, as a rule, required to have that level of detail. So if they don’t need that in their cart, they don’t need it from their TT either.

And as far as radio stations go, the dynamic range and FR is cut off pretty drastically; so why the need for a HiFi cart at a radio station? Why from a dance floor??

The argument that the SL1200 MKII is the best DJ table EVER and the only table worthy of HiFi vinyl playback is totally lost on me. They don’t go together.

BMRR
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by BMRR » 20 Jun 2019 18:46

wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 14:11
The reviews say it has great bass reproduction, right and full, and more detail than even the Denon DL 103. But, it tracks at 5 grams, and very low compliance, 5mV output. But also very ruggedly built. Conical Stylus, typically. Stereophile liked it a lot!
I have both the SC35C and the DL-103. I've compared them pretty extensively. In my opinion, they have almost nothing in common. My DL-103 absolutely mops the floor with my SC35C in every aspect — detail, soundstage, bass tightness, frequency range, and tracking ability.

My lowly VM95C ($35) actually sounds more like a DL-103 than my SC35C does.

The SC35C probably performs better in a heavy 12" broadcast arm, but how many of us have an arm like that at home?

wolfie62
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by wolfie62 » 20 Jun 2019 20:33

That’s sounds right to me. I’m not a Stereophile reviewer, but to say that lowly Shure sounds like, or better, than the 103 .....

mamakasou
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by mamakasou » 20 Jun 2019 23:37

wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 20:33
That’s sounds right to me. I’m not a Stereophile reviewer, but to say that lowly Shure sounds like, or better, than the 103 .....
I rarely read professional reviewers. They can't be taken seriously in my opinion.
Especially the ones made more recent.
At least in the past they tried to present the products by more elaborate means, providing graphs and measurements.
If i do read them it is just for my amusement.

However, I also avoid preconceptions regarding the sound of a cartridge, based on price and/or marketing.
The only valid method is to listen to it yourself and make fair comparisons on your own.

Unfortunately, I can't comment on the DL103 and how it compares, since I do not own one.
But what I mean is that even a 'lowly' Shure like that, is possible to sound better than several other cartridges.
Regardless of their price.

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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by rabbitoioi » 21 Jun 2019 17:29

I have a Grado dj 200 and it sounds wonderful. The closest thing to hifi in a dj cart. Classic Grado warmth and more detail than Ortofon or Shure

It does not track as well as a 447 for scratching etc if that if your aim however

I think I’ve gone through every dj cart possible in the past 20 years looking for sound quality and finally settled on Ortofon super om series. Dj e. Stylus for turntable work. And a pair of om30 stylus for sq (it’s an Ortofon 2m bronze at that point). Also have a 78 stylus for the old big band records

tlscapital
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by tlscapital » 21 Jun 2019 18:01

wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 17:15
For a long time folks have vehemently argued the superior merits of the Technics SL1200 MKII Turntable. Not me. Built well for DJ use, but not necessarily the best for HiFi playback. And, I’m not a DJ, don’t now, and have never aspired to be one. So those non-DJ owners who say over and over that it’s the best turntable to own for vinyl playback...I don’t get it.
The SL-1200 was originally made for home use. Like you, I thought it was made for DJ use only it was not. Albeit some evolution these TT's received through the decades proved to be DJ friendly orientated... And evidently they proved to be reliable enough (strong and robust motor) almost plug'n'play manual operated turntables for the DJ's.

The fact that the DJ's hyped the reputation of these turntables since the eighties participated in it's 'Joe Public' commercial success as well. And the audiophiles altogether if ever could rely on it's technical specifications in regard of noise, wow & flutter. Calling themselves 'Techies'; they do await every SL-1200 new edition, version and upgrade.
wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 17:15
I have long held that DJs really don’t care about, and don’t need HiFi playback. DJ carts aren’t, as a rule, required to have that level of detail. So if they don’t need that in their cart, they don’t need it from their TT either.
To be clear I am not a DJ as such. If I do DJ sometimes, I am first a music lover and record collector. Since I collect mainly 45's I was always incline to go for transcription cartridges. And there is a world of variety of "DJ" gear out there. Wanting to retrieve the most out of my old MONO grooves, I ended up with a DL-102 transcription cartridge.

There are finer MONO MC cartridge out there but this one does good justice to my records. Then I find to favor modern solid state "Hi-Fi" amplification over anything else. When I DJ (uncalibrated by me acoustic and gear), as a punter and at home, I do have my quality expectations in playback. In the 2 first cases with compromise, in the second much less.
wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 17:15
And as far as radio stations go, the dynamic range and FR is cut off pretty drastically; so why the need for a HiFi cart at a radio station? Why from a dance floor??
Not considering my phono set-up as a DJ one nor as a Hi-Fi one evidently, but rather a "Ri-Fi' (as in Right Fidelity) with half of it pre dating second millenium and other half post 2000 for a proper playback of my 45's. Mind you my DL-102 is STEREO compliant and does give a good presentation of my few STEREO LP's and 12' extended plays as well.

The DL-102 was intentional built for radio air-play. Still I manage to get a deep sound (2-D with my 2-way speakers) in clarity (silent floor on neutral class 'A' amplification) with enough details on a big soundstage (wide frequency spectrum) with my tweaked speakers showing out distinct vocals, horns and strings. More musical than detailed it is.
wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 17:15
The argument that the SL1200 MKII is the best DJ table EVER and the only table worthy of HiFi vinyl playback is totally lost on me. They don’t go together.
The SL-1200 was my first "good" turntable bought second hand in my late teens. After the first 10 years of good service, I got bored of that Techie hype and went to try other DD's. Still got satisfaction in performance. Yet sonically also "flat". Then some ten years later I was lend a basic Thorens TD160 'E' belt drive and felt instantly in love with it.

Once I got use to My Thorens and SME combo, I went into tweaking, improving and converting it. There I got to understand much more to it and other drive designed turntable and their respective inherent 'sonic signature'. Beside their laboratory specs which are important features for any turntable, I find the SL-1200 sounding "muffled" some.

tlscapital
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by tlscapital » 21 Jun 2019 18:42

rabbitoioi wrote:
21 Jun 2019 17:29
I have a Grado dj 200 and it sounds wonderful. The closest thing to hifi in a dj cart. Classic Grado warmth and more detail than Ortofon or Shure

It does not track as well as a 447 for scratching etc if that if your aim however

I think I’ve gone through every dj cart possible in the past 20 years looking for sound quality and finally settled on Ortofon super om series. Dj e. Stylus for turntable work. And a pair of om30 stylus for sq (it’s an Ortofon 2m bronze at that point). Also have a 78 stylus for the old big band records
Those Grado DJ200i should be good or better but also more expensive and their stylus replacement even more so ! So for DJ purpose unless the ticket is high...

chiz
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by chiz » 21 Jun 2019 18:57

tlscapital wrote:
21 Jun 2019 18:01
wolfie62 wrote:
20 Jun 2019 17:15
For a long time folks have vehemently argued the superior merits of the Technics SL1200 MKII Turntable. Not me. Built well for DJ use, but not necessarily the best for HiFi playback. And, I’m not a DJ, don’t now, and have never aspired to be one. So those non-DJ owners who say over and over that it’s the best turntable to own for vinyl playback...I don’t get it.
The SL-1200 was originally made for home use. Like you, I thought it was made for DJ use only it was not.
Wolfie is talking about the SL-1200MK2 which was designed for DJ use.

I’ve been a happy user of these since the 1980s but I’m not under the misconception that it is the best turntable for every application.

tlscapital
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by tlscapital » 22 Jun 2019 08:50

chiz wrote:
21 Jun 2019 18:57
Wolfie is talking about the SL-1200MK2 which was designed for DJ use.
OK, so that is an "unofficial" accepted fact then ? I am yet to readd a definite written statement on that "orientation". But it does make sense indeed. Not that it is a "crucial" fact of utter relevance but rather an interesting and relevant point to underline in certain discussions.
chiz wrote:
21 Jun 2019 18:57
I’ve been a happy user of these since the 1980s but I’m not under the misconception that it is the best turntable for every application.
Agreed. So was I also a happy user while I had mine for 10 years. And I understand those who still are. Still since there's no such thing as a "best" turntable (no "universal" rule in phono world) those who claim so are in the wrong "twice"; theoretically and semantically.

chiz
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by chiz » 22 Jun 2019 10:39

tlscapital wrote:
22 Jun 2019 08:50
chiz wrote:
21 Jun 2019 18:57
Wolfie is talking about the SL-1200MK2 which was designed for DJ use.
OK, so that is an "unofficial" accepted fact then ? I am yet to readd a definite written statement on that "orientation".
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chiz
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Re: DJ Cartridge Exploration

Post by chiz » 22 Jun 2019 10:40

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