Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

the thin end of the wedge
Geof777
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Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Geof777 » 12 Apr 2019 18:34

I have a Gyrodec with Techno arm. Tonally its open leaning towards bright but after my 2M Blue was replaced with a Nagaoka MP200 it sounds pretty good - the MP200 sounding slightly on the warm side. Capacitance loading is now 100pF
which flattens and extends the top end a little.
I am nearing new Stylus time and don;t really appreciate the ugly purple Monster so wondered if a tidy black Goldring 1042 might be the thing??
I have listened to loads of Needle drops as well as You tube clips of various carts - despite having a love for MC the MP200 seems tighter and more controlled than what I have had in the past in MC's
The 2M Blue was just shouty and bright with a rolled off top - being very critical. Being kind it was musical and clear.
I do sometimes notice the MP200 can sound edgy on vocals on S's and the like - maybe wear on older records! But on the whole it gives a flat clean Broadcast like sound.
So to get e new stylus for the MP200 or go for a Goldring 1042?? a little brighter top won't hurt as long as its generally similarly neutral. (I cannot afford an MP300 and not sure I prefer it anyway, & 2M Black is a little too in my face )
Comments and opinions welcomed - we are all different, but I would be interested to hear.
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_f ... w&id=59908
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Agrippa
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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Agrippa » 12 Apr 2019 20:04

I'm a fan of the 1042, but I haven't heard the Blue or the MP200. I have, however, listened a lot to the MP110 and also a good bit to the MP300.

Now, I consider the MPs and the 1042 to be quite different. The MPs I find "comfortable", "pleasant" and very "analogue". Those aren't alternative words for "woolly", "lacking in detail" or "boring", they mean what they mean. Edgy or sibilant is about the last thing which springs to mind, while neutral is far from the first.

On the other hand, the 1042 I find to be decidedly neutral, detailed and dynamic. Not necessarily an opposite to the MPs, but quite different and closer to what I want a good MC to sound like. Not to say that I don't like the MPs or think they aren't great cartridges, but I couldn't live happily over time with only one or more MPs in my cartridge box. Unless, I suppose, I didn't know what I was missing.

Anyway, my suggestion would be to pick up a 1042, especially as it can be had for £200 from Juno Records in London. If you like it's all good, it you hate it you should be able to sell it for enough to buy a JNP200 stylus for your MP200.

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by patient_ot » 12 Apr 2019 22:00

I have a Goldring 1042. Keep in mind the current version of this cartridge is relatively low compliance with a very stiff suspension. I got 10hz resonance with a test record on a 25g arm + headshell combo using one. I realize people often use these on lighter mid-mass arms like Regas and such but you should expect quite a different resonance that way. I also did not find it was the best tracker on my most challeging records. It's well behind my AT cartridges (not even close) and my Stanton + Jico combo in that regard.

Oh, and one more thing. It's a very "hot" cartridge (6.5mV), so if your phono preamp has a weak overload margin, you'll know it with this cartridge, especially on hotly cut records. It will sound harsh and you'll hear more surface noise. I was able to mitigate that aspect greatly by switching over to a Graham Slee phono stage.

There was no way to improve the tracking though and I experimented with it a lot. I think between the stiff suspension and the Gyger-S stylus profile (not to mention the generator design with a fat magnet at the end of the cantilever) it is really not suited to very challenging rock records. If you're tastes are more in line with say jazz or classical or instrumental music in general I think you will be very happy.

If you have a lot of tough to track records with hot cuts, narrow inner grooves, sudden sibilants, etc. then I would recommend a different cartridge. I'm now using an AT VM95ML as my #1 cartridge on the main deck. Much better tracker and easier to match with different phono preamps due to a more modest output. Not overly "bright" either.

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Geof777 » 13 Apr 2019 00:35

Thanks to both Agrippa & patient_ot for your Honest views. Its still a thought I am mulling over very much.
I have a fairly inexpensive but great sounding separate Phono Stage which has input level control and also Capacitance switching... so that aspect is unlikely to be an issue. The Gyrodec/Techno arm combi is on the lean side I guess, but everything is there nice and clear. As a result the Nagaoka MP200 sounds fairly neutral but maybe better suited to classical and Jazz - although the odd rock and such like albums I have played sounded fine. Tracking is stunning! Better than anything else I have ever owned! I have concerns over the Stylus size and shape and occasionally, on 2nd hand or worn records I detect a bit of roughness in the presence and treble..But for 95% of the time its dead smooth and clean. So, Maybe , I should put up with the horrible look and buy a new stylus. I even considered painting it all black haha!! Another possibility would be a cheaper MC I had the Ortofon MC 25 FL which is a tad more powerful in the bass and slightly veiled in the presence - very nice but looser in the bass than the MP200 - I could get that re tipped I guess but I only have an old AT 630 Transformer which I liked but not used in over 25 years now!! I think I should stay with MM now as in my budget they seem tighter and still very detailed. I am not sure there is anything else I should be considering really...?

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by jc3 » 13 Apr 2019 01:21

The MP-200 has an appearance that is an acquired taste perhaps. But as far as reproduction goes, man is it good. I'd put it a step below the Grace F-9, and a teensy-tinsy step at that. In fact, for jazz I'd put the MP-200 above the F-9. If you're happy with the 200, I'd suggest splurging on an Jn-P500 stylus - which will get you an upgraded line contact with the same boron cantilever. Don't buy from a US retailer though - you'll get gouged. Buy direct from Japan. Right now you can get one for around 200 with free (and very fast) shipping.

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by patient_ot » 13 Apr 2019 01:30

Geof777 wrote:
13 Apr 2019 00:35
Thanks to both Agrippa & patient_ot for your Honest views. Its still a thought I am mulling over very much.
I have a fairly inexpensive but great sounding separate Phono Stage which has input level control and also Capacitance switching... so that aspect is unlikely to be an issue. The Gyrodec/Techno arm combi is on the lean side I guess, but everything is there nice and clear. As a result the Nagaoka MP200 sounds fairly neutral but maybe better suited to classical and Jazz - although the odd rock and such like albums I have played sounded fine. Tracking is stunning! Better than anything else I have ever owned! I have concerns over the Stylus size and shape and occasionally, on 2nd hand or worn records I detect a bit of roughness in the presence and treble..But for 95% of the time its dead smooth and clean. So, Maybe , I should put up with the horrible look and buy a new stylus. I even considered painting it all black haha!! Another possibility would be a cheaper MC I had the Ortofon MC 25 FL which is a tad more powerful in the bass and slightly veiled in the presence - very nice but looser in the bass than the MP200 - I could get that re tipped I guess but I only have an old AT 630 Transformer which I liked but not used in over 25 years now!! I think I should stay with MM now as in my budget they seem tighter and still very detailed. I am not sure there is anything else I should be considering really...?
If you can get the gain down to about 35db or even a little less, you can tame the 1042. Otherwise better have a very ROBUST phono stage.

Someone mentioned the MP-500 stylus for your existing cartridge, that might be a good alternative option to consider. It should certainly do a better job than the fat .4 x .7 elliptical Nagaoka puts on most of their cartridges.

RE: your MC 25, I can't advise on that but it could be worth looking into. There are some people that like some of those older Ortofon MCs.

Agrippa
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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Agrippa » 13 Apr 2019 01:59

If the MP500 stylus can indeed be had for 200 (pounds, I assume?), then I'd say that's likely a real no-brainer.


Geof777
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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Geof777 » 14 Apr 2019 00:02

Ahh that's really interesting and helpful.
I am in no hurry so will inwardly digest and think on this - I am not certain I prefer either the MP300 or MP500
but like them differently to the MP200. In a comparison I also quite liked the MP150. For me they all have different good points. Its trick when you cannot get to hear them all.
I will track down some needle drops and examples then listen through my main speakers and see what I think...
(systems situations too much to explain here and now)
But - I will just say the Turntable is used as much for copying music to CD /MP3 for portable listening as just listening as, for domestic reasons, its not on my main speakers system.
I think, maybe, I am asking to much from a given pick up cartridge!! I would like excellent balance and detail and low noise - good tracking. But ability to queue up (back track) for recording!!

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by DeepEnd » 14 Apr 2019 14:42

I have a MP-200 stylus I use on a MP-11 Boron body which works well in my system and a big step up from the MP110 stylus I also have BUT I also have the MP-11 Boron (same boron cantilever as the 200) retipped by ESCo with their "Ultra Low Mass Paratrace" tip.

This gives an extended line contact tip (like the MP-500) and probably gives 80-90% of what the MP-500 does. The tracking is so good I have not found anything it won't track, and even though the transient response on the MP200 is good the re-tipped version betters it. Again sibilance is not bad on the MP200 but better on the retip and "sparkle" and ambience is improved, the bass weight and control is also better. As you may have gathered I quite like the re-tip :D :D :D

The cost of the re-tip (£120) was less than I paid for importing a new MP200 stylus out of Japan (~£135) and as such is a veritable bargain and may perform even better in the MP-200 body you have (better magnetic circuit than the MP11B body) so would be my recommendation apart from backtracking (never tried nor would want to).

This now competes with my sapphire cantilevered ULM Paratraced A&R P77Mg in sound performance (but tracks much better) in my Rega RP8.

If I can find time tomorrow I will try and do a couple of 96/24 recording of the 200 vs 11B/P and provide a link for you to try as a comparison. Any particular genre preferred?

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Geof777 » 15 Apr 2019 00:12

Any genre would do preferably with a full range of dynamic sounds.
I am curious bit not in a rush... So ideal to take time and listen 😎

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by hedgehog35 » 15 Apr 2019 14:53

If the techno arm had a detachable headshell I would say own both! But since it hasn't, here are my thoughts. I currently have both these cartridges and have used them on a Gyrodec SE with Audio Origami modified Rega RB300 arm and SME M2 - 9 arm. I know this is probably not what you want to hear, but either of these cartridges will sound better in an upgraded arm. I'm not trying to confuse the issue; it's just to be aware that the full potential of either cartridge will only be realised with a better arm (but the Techno arm is very good). Now that I have got that out the way, here are my subjective impressions of both cartridges.
Set up - both a bit of a pain without cartridge body screw threads, but maybe marginally easier with the MP200 with nice flat sides to aid alignment.
Tracking - Close run here, but the 200 has a small advantage over the Goldring. Easily tracks +12 - +16dB tracks on side 1 of the 'Hi Fi News' test record. Goldring can just about scrape through the +16dB track. I don't get too hung up on these results and both seem able to track inner grooves well - even if the Nagaoka has a 'less advanced' stylus profile.
I usually set the '200 at about 1.8g tracking weight, but general opinion is that the 1042 does better near its maximum recommended, and so I set it just under 2g.
In terms of output, I find them very similar. Both much lower than an Ortofon 2M black, for example. I have had discussion in the forum with patient_ot about this, and I must have a sample with a lower output than normal, but it still sounds great.
Sound quality - I'm going to avoid controversy here by saying they both sound good, but different. The Nagaoka is very well balanced through all frequencies, with great dynamic range which is supported by a really solid rhythmic bass. Nice treble detail which is only occasionally provoked into a little sibilance on certain recordings. A good allrounder with no obvious weaknesses. I find the Goldring is a little more reticent i.e. not quite as 'upfront' as the Nagaoka. Nice stereo spread and good depth to the soundstage if it's in the right arm. Lovely cartridge with acoustic music, particularly stringed instruments which have a very natural tone and sound. I would say it sounds as if it has a slightly rolled-off treble and so is a little kinder with surface noise on worn records.
Good solid base, perhaps not as well defined as with the Nagaoka.
Just as a comparison, the Ortofon 2m black projects the music forward much more than either of these cartridges and also 'excavates' a lot more detail from the groove. However, it 'takes no prisoners' with poorer records and can sometimes sound a bit relentless with brighter recordings.
If you decide to switch cartridge I am sure you will not be disappointed with the sound, but I am not convinced it will be a massive upgrade. For that, you will need to get a better arm to reveal the full potential of either cartridge. That's an expensive route to take and you may (quite rightly), not consider it worth the expense. The point I am trying to make is, I do not think that your system is being limited by your present cartridge. I would look elsewhere if you want to get a 'better sound'.

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Geof777 » 15 Apr 2019 22:51

Thanks hedgehog35, that's probably more helpful than you realise..even if it confirms there is no real right answer.
Honestly it is all a little confusing.
I have had the forethought in the past to record several of my Cartridges on the same bits of music - Ok Record to CD I know but at least they all had the same treatment (ish) I waited until they were nicely run in then made the recording.
The only difference is that the MP200 was only ever recorded with the techno arm. Previously it was an RB 300. The RB 300 needed extensive work and I also needed height adjustment for the 2M Blue I was using. So I opted for a structurally perfect discounted Techno arm that Michell were less than happy with the finish on. The MP300 is overall the nearest to ideal I have had!... but were it on the RB300, or more so the previous Denon Turntable, I would have maybe felt it was too warm or Bass heavy. The techno arm and Gyro leans towards Lean (generally). My Music is played on various different setups as I record quite a lot onto CD as the TT is only on one system - No room on my main system domestically! Here's the thing then: The MP200 is fine almost all the time but occasionally gets a little sibilence or sounds like a cheap magnet on some recordings. My memory of MC's is a little rose tinted and my hearing is less good - but they tended to sing better in the higher frequencies, MM 's have countered with a tighter more articulate sound generally. MY Ortofon MC25 was great for several years but I have subsequently listened to MC25 /RB 300 vs MP200 / Techno arm and the MP200 sounded a bit better. (MC25 had more bass though) Aside from styluses and/or cartridges I am near the end of the road with the deck - it stays pretty much as it is and gets less use these days. So a new arm is not an option. The other issue with the MP200 is how bad I feel it makes the deck look! - its like a great big chewy sweet stuck on the end of a nice arm and deck. I know this is all vanity but one thought is to take it off and carefully paint it black then get an MP500 stylus popped on it! I am certain I am over thinking all this.. listening to an album in the car I thought it sounded great off the MP200... When I get some alone time I will listen to all my past pickups and a few needle drops of others on my other 'main' system. The 1042 would look OK I just need to decide how I feel it might sound, generally, on the techno arm. More presence clarity would be OK - as long as its not like the 2M's but conversly less bass could be an issue.

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Geof777 » 16 Apr 2019 15:41

Apologies - cannot edit - above should have read MP200 instead of: The MP300 is overall the nearest to ideal I have had!...

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Re: Goldring 1042 a suitable move after a Nagaoka MP200?

Post by Geof777 » 16 Apr 2019 18:59

I have just read some reviews of the newer Audio Technica VM750SH - previously I had liked the 150ANV and thought that would be my ideal alternative - but its no longer available. (there was a comparison of several carts a few years back I downloaded the Needle drops)
Anyone here tried the VM750SH?? One reviewer on Amazon compared it to his MP200 favourably.
Maybe a better option than the Goldring 1042???
I am seriously tempted by this one!

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