Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

the thin end of the wedge
GameOver69
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Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by GameOver69 » 12 Jan 2019 18:50

Hi,

Were there any Ceramic Cartridges that were somewhat comparable to a MM Cartridge in regards to sound quality? If so, which ones would you suggest, and would they fit in a Dual 1010 sled properly without modification.

Thanks

Needler
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by Needler » 12 Jan 2019 18:57

Check out this old thread...
viewtopic.php?t=28055

Coffee Phil
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by Coffee Phil » 12 Jan 2019 19:34

Hi GameOver69,

There is another insanely long thread on ceramic cartridges on this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=82160&hilit=Ceramic+cartridges

I believe you will find mention of the better examples such as Ronette, Sonotone, and Microacoustics.

There is also information on how to best use them.

Phil

GameOver69 wrote:
12 Jan 2019 18:50
Hi,

Were there any Ceramic Cartridges that were somewhat comparable to a MM Cartridge in regards to sound quality? If so, which ones would you suggest, and would they fit in a Dual 1010 sled properly without modification.

Thanks

Needler
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by Needler » 12 Jan 2019 19:49

Coffee Phil wrote:
12 Jan 2019 19:34
Hi GameOver69,

There is another insanely long thread on ceramic cartridges on this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=82160&hilit=Ceramic+cartridges

I believe you will find mention of the better examples such as Ronette, Sonotone, and Microacoustics.

There is also information on how to best use them.

Phil
I read the op in that thread and the only response I could come up with after reading it was this: Why would you do this, other than because you are an electronics hobbyist? I'm talking about the particular situation of the op, not the general concept.

Pauw
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by Pauw » 12 Jan 2019 20:56

The Sonotone ceramic lived well into the 70s and with the right set up was considered the equal of many a good quality MM

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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by gofar99 » 12 Jan 2019 22:45

Hi, Didn't there used to be some on Magnavox sets using the Colaro (spelling?) player? I thought they were by EV or Empire and were designed for high end sound.

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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by KentT » 12 Jan 2019 22:46

There was the Weathers FM Cartridge/tonearm system if mono is fine (will also safely play Stereo records without damage)
Matsushita Strain gauge cartridge
SoundSmith Strain gauge cartridge
Euphonics Miniconic cartridge
Win Labs Strain Gauge cartridge.

None of the above are made to be used on a Dual 1010 (the Weathers is an integrated tonearm/cartridge for manual turntables only which can accept separate tonearms). None of these save for the Euphonics can be used on record changers or automatics.
Last edited by KentT on 12 Jan 2019 22:52, edited 1 time in total.

KentT
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by KentT » 12 Jan 2019 22:47

gofar99 wrote:
12 Jan 2019 22:45
Hi, Didn't there used to be some on Magnavox sets using the Colaro (spelling?) player? I thought they were by EV or Empire and were designed for high end sound.
EV. But decent ordinary, never meant to be high end. OK.

vanakaru
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by vanakaru » 12 Jan 2019 22:57

I have Sonotone 9TA, BSR SC5M,Decca Dearam, Dual CDS660 anf many more. I find BRS SC5M the easiest to set up and best sounding with added adjusting circuit of to use MM Phono IN(with benefit of RIAA).
pre.jpg
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Spinner45
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by Spinner45 » 12 Jan 2019 23:19

vanakaru wrote:
12 Jan 2019 22:57
I have Sonotone 9TA, BSR SC5M,Decca Dearam, Dual CDS660 anf many more. I find BRS SC5M the easiest to set up and best sounding with added adjusting circuit of to use MM Phono IN(with benefit of RIAA).

pre.jpg
I have used similar "networks" for using a ceramic into an RIAA magnetic stage.
The resistances and capacitance values can be adjusted for the best suitablity depending on the output of the ceramic used. (average ceramics can be anywhere from 120mV up to 550mV output)
Once "tweaked", the result is quite pleasant.

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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by Coffee Phil » 12 Jan 2019 23:53

Hi Needler,

For the most part I would agree with you. Magnetic cartridges have become standard for Hi Fi record playback. The electronics to use them is pretty much a no brainer. That said using ceramics is not difficult, but it takes some thought. When tube electronics was standard AUX inputs typically had high enough impedance ( >200 k Ohm), but now AUX inputs typically have less than 100 k Ohm input resistance so bass will be reduced. There are however simple networks which will permit ceramics to be used with magnetic inputs. That in my view is the preferred approach as you will get the correct RIAA EQ.

I recently acquired a NOS 1946 Admiral 78 only record changer and have gotten it working. It required new rubber parts and a clean and lube. It turns out it had the OEM Shure crystal cartridge which still worked. That is a remarkable thing as crystal cartridges are usually good for about a decade and this cartridge is more than 70 years old. I do not have the heart to replace a still working 70 year old cartridge so I tested it with the differentiating network which I posted in the long thread. I think is sounded pretty good. I wont say it is as good as my RPX or my Shure M44 with a 78 stylus but it is quite acceptable. Future plans are to build a cathode follower buffer with an input network from the period Shure catalog which promised to give the sound which the recording engineer intended.

Phil
Needler wrote:
12 Jan 2019 19:49
Coffee Phil wrote:
12 Jan 2019 19:34
Hi GameOver69,

There is another insanely long thread on ceramic cartridges on this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=82160&hilit=Ceramic+cartridges

I believe you will find mention of the better examples such as Ronette, Sonotone, and Microacoustics.

There is also information on how to best use them.

Phil
I read the op in that thread and the only response I could come up with after reading it was this: Why would you do this, other than because you are an electronics hobbyist? I'm talking about the particular situation of the op, not the general concept.

KentT
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by KentT » 13 Jan 2019 01:51

Other thing to note: The Micro-Acoustics won't be suitable for your Dual. You need a low mass, high compliance tonearm for it, the Dual 1218, 1219, and 1229 would do fine.

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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by GameOver69 » 13 Jan 2019 03:53

Thanks for all your responses, much appreciated. I have actually already put in a Shure m44e cartridge and preamp into my grunding console that houses the dual. Here is my dilemma now.... The TR input gets affected by the preamp. For example, if I connect a Bluetooth device with the proper cabling, the sound output is extremely low. Now, this wouldn't be a big deal, as I can simply unplug the power to the preamp, and all sounds as it should. But my concern, is for the reel to reel I'd like to use in conjunction with my record player to do some recording. The reel to reel came with my console, but is being serviced as we speak(by a qualified professional), as it wasn't working properly.

I would imagine (and I can be wrong) that there will be an issue with playback and more importantly recording.
If I am wrong with any of my assumptions please let me know. So that's why I'm looking at ceramic to eliminate this possible future headache.

The Shure cart I have sounds much better than the ceramic dual cart that came with the turntable . I don't want to sacrifice sound much, and that's why I was hoping for something that may come close.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

vanakaru
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by vanakaru » 13 Jan 2019 08:20

I think you trying to solve the problem from wrong end. Preamp nor Bluetooth should not have this effect. I have a feeling that there may be something wrong with how these are wired to the rest of the system.
Are you taking power to the preamp and BT from the console or from mains adapter?
What preamp you use?

GameOver69
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Re: Ceramic Cartridge comparable to MM Cartridge

Post by GameOver69 » 16 Jan 2019 23:01

Preamp has its own dedicated ac power, the Bluetooth adapter works on a charge but can be plugged in by AC as well. The preamp is a Pro-Ject Phono Box MM

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